DarthTrethon:

Do not waste your time with flame and shock augments people. They are completely worthless.

okay, that's weird. your test results are completely opposite what mine were. when i tested augments, i used a master (i think) katana, and counted the hits it took to kill things.

my (partial) results were as follows, balverines:

• nothing: 7
• killerwatt: 6 (-1)
• flame: 5 (-2)
• flame + killerwatt: 4 (-3)
  

in my mind, this seemed to confirm that they're doing damage, and that the damage stacks. perhaps it works a little different -- perhaps you're (technically) doing the same damage, but there's a weakness effect that eats away the health of the enemy, or something? the single best augment combo i tested, divine favour aside for balance issues, was the one i listed above. on that katana, it will kill a balverine in three hits. maybe two. please note that these were all un-flourished hits. flourishes throw everything out the window. in this case, i would suggest that if damage and number of hits give different results, it's number of hits we should worry about. afterall, we want stuff to die faster, right?

DarthTrethon:

Shot value with Skill and Beauty augment(completely maxed out character with nothing left to learn): 169

Net Gain: 28

looking back on my notes, i do see an increase with devastation. i just don't see it when combined with other damage augments.

again, partial results on balverines:

• devastation: 6 (-1)
• lucky charm: 5 (-2)
• lucky charm and devastation: 5 (-2).

as i mentioned above, perhaps the master clockwork pistols is not the best weapon to test this on. i saw a lot of improvement with devastation on pistols, but ZILCH on any melee weapons once you put other augments on. maybe "skill" is a hint that it only applies to ranged weapons?

DarthTrethon:

Through additional testing I found that when adding the Divine Favour augment next to Luck and Life AND Skill and Beauty there is no damage gain at all. So while Divine Favour does stack with the Luck benefit(take less damage & do more) it doesn't seem to stack with the Skill benefit which allows you to do more damage with the equipped weapon.

i found that the skill effect doesn't stack with other damage. divine favour certainly does -- it just absolutely demolishes unearthly things, and continues to do so even with lucky charm, flame, and killerwatt all in effect. it will kill things in fewer hits even still. but the skill shuts down when lucky charm is effect (at max levels and high damage!)

DarthTrethon:

My final conclusion: There is no point to using the Fire and Shock augments or the Divine Favour augment.

but i have seen things consistently die more quickly with flame, killerwatt, and both, and the affects appear to stack. try it yourself, and count the number of hits it takes to kill something instead of looking at the damage dealt stat. things just die in fewer hits.

ObiRadd:

for anyone who wants to compare their stuff. i 1 shot balverines to the head with my clockwork, or it only takes 2 regular shots..   also 1 flourish balverines, that or 2 regular swings.. on my cutless  and that is not including divine or something like that, i have a set of killing stuff that is insane!

yeah, anything higher than a katana will regularly two-slice a balverine. the katana, iirc, does it some of the time. one flourish will do it with anything.

i routinely one-shot balverines with my master flintlock rifle. anywhere i shoot it. i don't think i even have to aim, really. the blunderbuss instakills them too most of the time, but it's tricky finding the right range with that thing.

DarthTrethon:

Those are wastes or empty slots. I don't need a bloody augment that helps kill the slow hollow men. I couldn't care less what you think you figured out but it's far from a combination.

whoah, no need to get hostile. i think we're all interested here in finding out the specifics of how these augments work. and i can personally verify what he's saying, with my stats above. flame and killerwatt are far from useless. in fact, in my testing, devastation seems to have been useless when combined with other damage-increasing augments. but i included it anyways, in case i was wrong, and because even with flame and killerwatt effect, i still had an extra slot. more exp and gold? those are wastes in the long run...

What monsters did you test on? Hollow men have flame weakness and possibly a shock weakness. On bandits however(who deffinitely ARE considered and affected by Divine Favour) neither flame, shock affected them and Divine Favour who certainly worked when no other augments were present no longer had any sort of effect on them when combined with skill and luck benefits. Again as I mentioned before there is no reason to put augments like flame and shock for hollow men or hobbes when you can easily use a spell or two if it's that much of a matter. I kill nearly everything in one hit as it is including balverines.

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DarthTrethon:

I can shoot lightning and fire from my fists just as fast as from a gun or sword

oh, and no offense meant, but i highly doubt that. i've played my fair share of co-op, and everything's usually dead before my guest gets up to a fourth or fifth level spell, and fires it off. quite a few times, i've taken out three balverines, one shot each, before they're ready to send a fireball in the direction of the first one. guns and swords are way, way faster than magic.

magic is fast for the crucible, but that relies a lot on the spawn delay, and the fact that there are large numbers of enemies. for a lot of damage, in one direction, very fast, you just cannot beat a master flintlock rifle with mighty oak, flame, and killerwatt (and maybe devastation if it actually does anything in that setup).

the only real case where high-level magic is faster on a single enemy are trolls. and that's only because it's such a pain finding the nerves. time control up to 3, lighting up to 5, blammo dead, 13 seconds.

DarthTrethon:

What monsters did you test on?

balverines. i tried a few other things, as well. hobbes and bandits most definitely took MORE hits to kill than they did without divine favour. i recall this because i thought it was very strange. i did all the math and testing on balverines, and ended up with a set that included ghoul, lucky charm, flame, killerwatt, and divine favour effects, and suddenly fights with bandits and hobbes took a whole lot longer. removed divine favour, and the same weapon became instant kill on the lower levels of both.

DarthTrethon:

Hollow men have flame weakness and possibly a shock weakness. On bandits however(who deffinitely ARE considered and affected by Divine Favour) neither flame, shock affected them and Divine Favour who certainly worked when no other augments were present no longer had any sort of effect on them when combined with skill and luck benefits.

just through using magic in the crucible, i know that shock works a lot better on bandits than fire.

DarthTrethon:

Again as I mentioned before there is no reason to put augments like flame and shock for hollow men or hobbes when you can easily use a spell or two if it's that much of a matter.

no, it's really not a big deal. i hack through groups of hollowmen like butter, really even without flame. but, for instance, balverines don't do well with fire either. i just... cannot concur with the argument that there is no reason to use flame or killerwatt. my results have demonstrated, to me, that there is a very noticable effect for both augments, and that both stack. and together with lucky charm, makes the most powerful combination of any i tested (divine favour aside).

DarthTrethon:

I kill nearly everything in one hit as it is including balverines.

yeah, me too. generally without trying.

Spare me the combat lectures. I only ever took 0.7% of the damage I dealt in 100+ hours of gameplay. Stick to your illusions if you will but you might want to check your testimg methods because they are faulty.

Proof of my damage taken/dealt:

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DarthTrethon:

Spare me the combat lectures.

so you're a mage. ok. i have all of my everything maxed out, and in my experience, i kill things way, way faster with guns, when they're coming one at a time. things are just plain dead long before i could have charged up the spell needed to kill them. it's literally the difference between hitting the button once, and holding it down for a few seconds. even taking the time to aim for the bigger guy's heads (balverines, banshees) it's faster than charging a spell. charging spells is just slower.

and really... i don't see how any of this is at all relevant. i thought we were discussing augments? and really, there's no need to get bent out of shape about it. i just don't see it your way, because the data i've gathered says differently, and my experiences tell me differently.

if you'd like, you're welcome to join my game sometime and we'll go balverine hunting and see whether your spells are a quicker draw than my gun.

DarthTrethon:

Stick to your illusions if you will but you might want to check your testimg methods because they are faulty.

i'm willing to accept that, but i'd like a better explanation as to why. i believe your damage stats, but my hit-counts aren't lying either. they were clear, and consistent, and repeatable. i'm not sure how it's an illusion if it's actually doing something observable. the only explanation i can come up with for the discrepancy is that there is some effect that is decreasing health of an enemy that does not count as damage, possibly as a weakness effect.

DarthTrethon:

I only ever took 0.7% of the damage I dealt in 100+ hours of gameplay.

and since we're sharing, here's mine:


as you can see, a bit less damage than you (i've only done the crucible like 8 times...), but only 30% or so is spell damage. and i promise you that most of that spell damage was in the crucible.

also, mine's at like 0.5%. so, i'll admit, that makes you a very mage -- most of my damage taken is almost surely while i'm charging a spell in the middle of a crowd of things. maybe it'd be a little better if i used time control, but it's generally in the crucible, as i said, and i try not to use time control in the crucible except on the troll because it messes up the clock. i'd rather take a little (inconsequential) damage.

The way I conducted my tests was like this:

1) I went to Bandit Coast

2) Recorded my total damage

3) Chose weapon for testing purposes

4) Faced a bandit and with the unaugmented weapon took one clean shot without any manual aiming.

5) Recorded damage done.

6) repeated steps 4 & 5 a few more times to ensure consistency of results.

7) Entered my inventory, equipped a differend weapon added one augment to my test weapon.

8) Exited the inventory and reentered it(I never fired a shot with the second weapon). Equipped the test weapon back, recorded my total damage and exited the inventory.

9) Pulled the weapon out and waited for the visual indication that the weapon was augmented.

10) Facing a bandit the same way I did the first time I fired one shot at the bandit.

11) Entered the inventory and recorded the damage done.

12) repeated steps 10 & 11 a few more times to ensure consistency of results.

13) repeated steps 7-12 every time I added an augment.

Unless there is damage that isn't logged by the game in the total damage there shouldn't be any error. Note that I paid carefull attention to ensure each shot was taken in the same conditions every time to avoid inconsistencies.

---

DarthTrethon:

The way I conducted my tests was like this:

1) I went to Bandit Coast

2) Recorded my total damage

3) Chose weapon for testing purposes

4) Faced a bandit and with the unaugmented weapon took one clean shot without any manual aiming.

5) Recorded damage done.

6) repeated steps 4 & 5 a few more times to ensure consistency of results.

7) Entered my inventory, equipped a differend weapon added one augment to my test weapon.

8) Exited the inventory and reentered it(I never fired a shot with the second weapon). Equipped the test weapon back, recorded my total damage and exited the inventory.

9) Pulled the weapon out and waited for the visual indication that the weapon was augmented.

10) Facing a bandit the same way I did the first time I fired one shot at the bandit.

11) Entered the inventory and recorded the damage done.

12) repeated steps 10 & 11 a few more times to ensure consistency of results.

13) repeated steps 7-12 every time I added an augment.

Unless there is damage that isn't logged by the game in the total damage there shouldn't be any error. Note that I paid carefull attention to ensure each shot was taken in the same conditions every time to avoid inconsistencies.

lol, don't test on fricken bandits, they're easy to kill with no augments.  Test on Balverines.  I agree with a poster above that the effects of the shock and flame augments aren't recorded as damage, because not all enemies are prone to shock or flame damage, which would make damage stats inaccurate.  It varies by enemy.  Test by hit count, not damage dealt.  In the end, it's how many hits it takes to kill something, not a measly number.

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Toughest enemies in the game are the shadow ones...bandits and the rest die easily without much augments. Any and every type of testing should be done on shadow creatures imo. The shadow balverines are wicked strong for example. My set up with divine favour works wonders on them.

btw darththreton ...if you want people to take you seriously...don't get so angry when people disagree with you. This is a discussion forum afterall. If you want your studies to be posted without refute..try making a FAQ or walkthrough and throwing it up on Gamefaqs.com or something.

That's why I tested with a weaker weapon. Either way the results are very clear and they are always consistent. 141 damage/shot with unaugmented weapon and 226 with "Luck" and "Skill" benefits.

Besides Balverines are just as weak as Bandits in my book but the Bandits stand still long enough for me to take the test shots in the exact same mannet every time. 

Ultimately the enemy on which augments should be tested is irrelevant as long as the damage dealt is recorded accurately and the enemy doesn't die in one shot.

Shadow creatures are just as weak as anything else.

---

I killed a bandit one hit with only a gun not aiming thy are pretty weak, but Balverines die in one hit if head shot just the same as the bandit

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Thoraxe impales all

Jodokonthefirst:

I killed a bandit one hit with only a gun not aiming thy are pretty weak, but Balverines die in one hit if head shot just the same as the bandit

What part of I used a weaker weapon you fail to comprehend? As long as the creature used doesn't die from one shot(AND IT DIDN'T!!!) it is preferable to use a slower target because you can replicate the exact same conditions for each shot for more accurate results.

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DarthTrethon:

Jodokonthefirst:

I killed a bandit one hit with only a gun not aiming thy are pretty weak, but Balverines die in one hit if head shot just the same as the bandit

What part of I used a weaker weapon you fail to comprehend? As long as the creature used doesn't die from one shot(AND IT DIDN'T!!!) it is preferable to use a slower target because you can replicate the exact same conditions for each shot for more accurate results.

Lol.

---

Crap Lost Odyssey is hard....

DarthTrethon:

Unless there is damage that isn't logged by the game in the total damage there shouldn't be any error. Note that I paid carefull attention to ensure each shot was taken in the same conditions every time to avoid inconsistencies.

i did basically the same thing, but counted sword swipes. very carefully, and without flourishes. there was a clearly observable effect for the flame and killerwatt augments that consistently caused enemies to die more quickly. i can't think of any other explanation other than there is something equivalent to damage that is going unrecorded. perhaps there is a kind of weakness multiplier effect that doesn't count for damage dealt but affects the damage the enemy is taking.

Beastest:

lol, don't test on fricken bandits, they're easy to kill with no augments.  Test on Balverines.  I agree with a poster above that the effects of the shock and flame augments aren't recorded as damage, because not all enemies are prone to shock or flame damage, which would make damage stats inaccurate.  It varies by enemy.  Test by hit count, not damage dealt.  In the end, it's how many hits it takes to kill something, not a measly number.

yeah, if there is a discrepancy, i would say that hit count is the stat that matters, as it's what you'll actually experience in the game. a weapon that kills something in fewer hits > a weapon that does more damage but requires more hits.

yohance:

If you want your studies to be posted without refute..try making a FAQ or walkthrough and throwing it up on Gamefaqs.com or something.

well, i think it's better he posted here. hopefully, through some dispute we can arrive at the truth, and maybe figure out something about the game mechanics. of course, it'd be nice if the devs could step and explain what's going on...

DarthTrethon:

That's why I tested with a weaker weapon. Either way the results are very clear and they are always consistent. 141 damage/shot with unaugmented weapon and 226 with "Luck" and "Skill" benefits.

right, but here's the weird thing. my testing showed that (at max level and with a weapon) luck and skill don't stack! lucky charm + devastation took exactly the same number of hits to kill something as lucky charm alone.

DarthTrethon:

Besides Balverines are just as weak as Bandits in my book

i instakill lowly bandits. highwaymen take like two or three hits. balverines take three.

DarthTrethon:

but the Bandits stand still long enough for me to take the test shots in the exact same mannet every time.

what was i saying about speed above? i rarely had problems with balverines not standing still long enough, once i put an augment or two on the sword.

DarthTrethon:

Ultimately the enemy on which augments should be tested is irrelevant as long as the damage dealt is recorded accurately and the enemy doesn't die in one shot.

well... no. certain enemies seem to be weaker to certain things. that's why flame and killerwatt work.

He thinks flame and killerwatt are somehow useless. Infact, he thinks any and everything that he didn't suggest is useless. I give up on him and this thread, i'm also taking back my 5 star rating of it. Until lionhead releases something or a list is reached that most can agree on...i'll continue with my set up. Peace.

Lionhead wont release aanything because its all about cusomization, a list cannot be made because people have preferences.

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Swimming through the void we hear the word,we lose ourselves but we find it all...

Fugue766:

Lionhead wont release aanything because its all about cusomization, a list cannot be made because people have preferences.

specific details about game mechanics would be nice, though. preferences are fine, but informed choices are better.

Oh yes a detailed description on what stacks and what the augments truly do would be awesome.

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Swimming through the void we hear the word,we lose ourselves but we find it all...

We atleast can agree on that. Anything else is speculation.

yohance:

He thinks flame and killerwatt are somehow useless. Infact, he thinks any and everything that he didn't suggest is useless. I give up on him and this thread, i'm also taking back my 5 star rating of it. Until lionhead releases something or a list is reached that most can agree on...i'll continue with my set up. Peace.

Not true. I took the Mighty Oak augment because it was a idea but on the rest I go purely on what my pesonal tests have shown. The Divine Favour augment seemed like a idea untill I tested it with the "Skill" benefit and noticed it doesn't stack. I won't use two augments because they affect a couple of enemies I kill in a single blow anyway and throw away an entire damage type. The protection provided by Mighty Oak works against all enemies indiscriminately and XP or gold are better that the nothing I get from shock or fire. I can't remember the last time I took more than one shot to kill an enemy.

If you want you can keep crying about balverines and shadow creatures and whatever else but guess what...they all die from a single blow anyway  and the fire and shock are a waste. You're crying about the small things: "Oh god I better get fire and shock so I can kill the chicken faster but I'll ignore extra armour so that the tougher enemies can kick my ass."

Enemies are supposed to be tougher in the colloseum and if they mean that even a little bit at least some of those enemies should have elemental resistances. It would only make sense to have enemies resistant to the same damage types other enemies have a weakness for.

Let's face it the toughest possible threat at the moment seems to be the Necromancer and I wouldn't count on him having any elemental weakness but hey at least you won't have to be scared of the beetles.

Not to mention that specific damage inflicted tests like the ones I've done will always be more accurate that the guesstimates provided by how many blows it took to kill an enemy.

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I was conducting my own trials and just felt like sharing that you can try
to test your damage rates on invincible NPCs like the Shadow worshiper near
the wheel of misfortune or the lady in the Box of secrets.
They never move and won't die no matter what you do.

---

xcrimsonlegendx:

I was conducting my own trials and just felt like sharing that you can try
to test your damage rates on invincible NPCs like the Shadow worshiper near
the wheel of misfortune or the lady in the Box of secrets.
They never move and won't die no matter what you do.

I don't suspect they have any elemental weakness so the tests I performed should be consistent.

---

Alright ive decided to say what my perfect augment combo is for a primary use weapon.(my ranged weapon is the enforcer)

-Luck and Skill
-Renewal/Luck and Life
-Mighty Oak
-Input playstyle augment here (It's not luck, Positively Charged, Flames Gift, Combat Mastery, Divine Favor or Strength of )

Now if your using 2 fully augmented weapons you only need to have 1 Mighty Oak freeing up a slot in your primary weapon for a second playstyle augment.

ps. If you go with Positively Charged or Flames Gift im pretty sure one of them just cancel out the other one making the second one pointless.

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Swimming through the void we hear the word,we lose ourselves but we find it all...

DarthTrethon:

Not true. I took the Mighty Oak augment because it was a idea but on the rest I go purely on what my pesonal tests have shown. The Divine Favour augment seemed like a idea untill I tested it with the "Skill" benefit and noticed it doesn't stack. I won't use two augments because they affect a couple of enemies I kill in a single blow anyway and throw away an entire damage type. The protection provided by Mighty Oak works against all enemies indiscriminately and XP or gold are better that the nothing I get from shock or fire. I can't remember the last time I took more than one shot to kill an enemy.

the shock and fire augments do something. i promise they do. i've observed it in my own game, in a quantifiable way. it might not do much for the damage stat, but it's doing something.

DarthTrethon:

If you want you can keep crying about balverines and shadow creatures and whatever else but guess what...they all die from a single blow anyway  and the fire and shock are a waste. You're crying about the small things: "Oh god I better get fire and shock so I can kill the chicken faster but I'll ignore extra armour so that the tougher enemies can kick my ass."

here's something even weirder: i'm pretty sure that the armor effect (as in mighty oak and barkskin) only needs to be on ONE of your two weapons. it seems to work whether or not the weapon is in hand.

and, um, balverines don't die in a single hit even with all of the damage increasing effects (including fire, shock, lucky charm, devastation, and divine favour) are on your weapon -- unless you're going into "aim from the shoulder" mode or using flourishes. the only real exception is with blunderbuses, and it only works like 50% of the time. i did very extensive testing on this.

DarthTrethon:

Not to mention that specific damage inflicted tests like the ones I've done will always be more accurate that the guesstimates provided by how many blows it took to kill an enemy.

not if there are other variables. this principle isn't too hard to understand -- it's like there's two ways to get to the store. you're looking at the shortest distance and saying it's superior because milage doesn't lie. i'm looking at several different routes and repeatedly timing how long it takes to get from here to there. it's less precise and needs a higher sample size... but at the end of the day, if you wanna know the fastest way to get to the store, my test will give you that answer. in this case, the other variables are things like traffic patterns -- the shorter distance might not be the fastest. maybe that road's under construction, or in a state of constant traffic jam.

here, the other variable might be un-recorded stats that are equivalent to increased damage. weakness effects. non-damage health draining effects. that sort of thing. i'll appeal to another video game that does have easily shown quantifiable stats as an example. i played TES-IV: oblivion as well. suppose i have two swords of equal stats (and repair), with the following enchantments:

sword one:

• damage health: 15 pts over 1 second

sword two:

• drain health: 100pts for 1 second
• weakness to magicka: 100% for 2 seconds.

which is the more powerful sword? sword one clearly does more damage, and sword two doesn't do any additional damage over its base stats. it doesn't even permanently affect your target.

the answer is somewhat obvious if you've played oblivion for a while. sword two just absolutely rapes things. you'll be hacking away at your enemy all day with sword one, but with two, if it doesn't die on the first hit, it dies on the second. or third. even though it's not doing permanent damage -- if you hit something once, and it lives, and back up for a few seconds, it won't have done a whole lot. however, death is permanent, and the weakness effect compounds, and with each hit you're (temporarily) draining your enemy's health by double what you did on the last hit. a half dozen hits will kill very high level monsters... and you'll have done very little actual damage.

DarthTrethon:

I don't suspect they have any elemental weakness so the tests I performed should be consistent.

...however, lots of enemies in the game DO have elemental weaknesses. i see no point in writing them off. if you can take advantage of that, why shouldn't you?

Fugue766:

-Luck and Skill

i've found that on melee weapons (and anything higher than like 50 damage), luck and skill do not stack, making the luck and skill augment a bad choice for max-level characters on melee weapons. you'd do better to swap it out for the flame's gift, and killerwatt in your extra slot. stuff will die even faster.

I use Positively Charged, Luck and Skill, Renewal and Mighty Oak. Im pretty sure Skill does do something and theres no point in using a Skill and Beauty when i have Renewal, alot of the augment things stack but i get what i want plus my weapon of choice is master hammer (aka Thors great hammer) everything dies 1 hit.

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Swimming through the void we hear the word,we lose ourselves but we find it all...