In today's world of electronically synthesyzed orchestras, does a composer for the games industry still use notation often?
How often are real orchestras used instead of their midi counterparts and if a real orchestra is used, does the composer get to work with the orchestra himself?
Does Russell Shaw have training as a conductor?
Is using a real orchestra considered too costly in a lot of game productions or has it become standard?

A lot of questions for a single post.

A very interesting set of questions!

1) I don't know about every one else, but I do use notation if I have to write my music for someone else, and its 150% easier to understand than graphic notation!

Notation is a fairly universal system, so if the piece is intended to be performed by other musicians scores would be vital. I think

2) I think a lot of games do still use MIDI, but heavily processed to blur the differences between real and sampled, If you listen to Halo one or a PS1 Final Fantasy game you can hear the MIDI at work there! I havent noticed such obviously noticable MIDI strings in a game for a long time, so I presume they are hiding it behind fancy mixing techniques!

As for composers working with the orchestra themselves, I have no idea, but Garry Schyman (BioShock, Destroy All Humans) does conduct himself I believe. I dont know about Mr.Shaw...

4)I think games are budgeting for orchestral scores now, because they feel that they are competing with Hollywood, and the real orchestra lends them that big, epic feel in a relatively simple way

All of the above is purely speculation.......

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Retro One - Part 2 My SFX and Music on Xbox community games

Fable 2 audio tribute!

I do know that James Newton Howard (who writes the music for, amongst many others, the M. Night. Shyamalan movies) is very at making midi sound real.
But the samples can get extremely expensive.

On the contrary, I think graphical scores are easier to perform (with a few exceptions) since they are are usually entirely up to interpretation and rely on creativity more than technique...
of course, for actually composing a musical score, graphical notation is best used in small doses if at all.

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stomp224:

A very interesting set of questions!

1) I don't know about every one else, but I do use notation if I have to write my music for someone else, and its 150% easier to understand than graphic notation!

Notation is a fairly universal system, so if the piece is intended to be performed by other musicians scores would be vital. I think

2) I think a lot of games do still use MIDI, but heavily processed to blur the differences between real and sampled, If you listen to Halo one or a PS1 Final Fantasy game you can hear the MIDI at work there! I havent noticed such obviously noticable MIDI strings in a game for a long time, so I presume they are hiding it behind fancy mixing techniques!

As for composers working with the orchestra themselves, I have no idea, but Garry Schyman (BioShock, Destroy All Humans) does conduct himself I believe. I dont know about Mr.Shaw...

4)I think games are budgeting for orchestral scores now, because they feel that they are competing with Hollywood, and the real orchestra lends them that big, epic feel in a relatively simple way

All of the above is purely speculation.......

1) Depends what sort of music. But if it's standard rock, jazz or orchestral and not dissonant squeaky-gate stuff - and you have studio time with professional musicians, then well written notation will get you what you want every time.

4) Full orchestra often gives a game class that it doesn't often deserve! (just like a film) ... and turns the rest into classics.

No matter how the samples are, you can always tell when a real orchestra is involved. To take an early example, they edited together various bits of Star Wars into a seemless 15 minute track for Tie Fighter - it's brilliant, and really immerses you in the environment, even though it's crappy 640 x 480 resolution. You feel like you're in Star Wars because of the completely authentic music. In so far as computer games will always be representations of the imagination, the music can go a long way to suspending disbelief. Using real musicians is extremely expensive, but worth every penny in terms of the finished product.

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jazzx:

- it's brilliant, and really immerses you in the environment, even though it's crappy 640 x 480 resolution.

Sorry, but what? are you attempting to refer to sample rate? Monitor resolutions have no impact on audio quality. Sample rates are measured in Hertz (Hz).

For reference, CD quality audio is 44.1 KHz, and professional audio is recorded/mixed at 192 KHz.

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Retro One - Part 2 My SFX and Music on Xbox community games

Fable 2 audio tribute!

stomp224:

jazzx:

- it's brilliant, and really immerses you in the environment, even though it's crappy 640 x 480 resolution.

Sorry, but what? are you attempting to refer to sample rate? Monitor resolutions have no impact on audio quality. Sample rates are measured in Hertz (Hz).

For reference, CD quality audio is 44.1 KHz, and professional audio is recorded/mixed at 192 KHz.

No - I was merely remarking how the music, played by a live orchestra, can immerse you in a game and stimulate your imagination even when what you see on the screen is really blocky and cruddy. Music helps to suspend disbelief.

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My mistake, I just thought that was such an obvious point it didn't warrant a mention.

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Retro One - Part 2 My SFX and Music on Xbox community games

Fable 2 audio tribute!

This is a question that can be applied to television programs as well as games, and some films. A large decision for the company/studio to make! 

I have various friends in music, and some of their work just using programs like Cubase and Logic is so detailed and high quality that its almost as as an orchestra. Almost, but not quite

As posted previously, I think that budgeting is going to be the main decider here for most game studios, but if available I think studios will opt for the live orchestra.

The human ear and sound processing parts of the brain are so complex that with a small amound of careful scrutiny, most people can easily differentiate between live orchestra or digitally synthesized audio. The human ear can detect movement in the air half the width of a hydrogen atom! Incredible.

I think that no matter what is done, a large amount of post recording effects and processes are normally applied, as is the case with most music nowadays.

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stomp224:

My mistake, I just thought that was such an obvious point it didn't warrant a mention.

I've mostly always disliked platform games like Super Mario Bros.

But one of my trumpet students requested that I write out the main theme from that game for him.

So, I went on YouTube to listen to the original version. It took me ages to find, mainly because I kept coming across brilliant live versions of the tune. They included a Japanese guy playing it using finger tapping on two guitars at once, a brilliant flute player doing a beatbox while playing the melody at the same time, a jazz version by a Stanford student and also, conducted by the composer (Koji Kondo) himself, a superb live orchestral version.

I just knew that if the live orchestral version had been somehow in the game in 1985, I would be unable to stop playing it - a classic example of my least favourite video game genre made palatable by live music.

PS. Soon we may see a trumpet duet version on YouTube; my arrangement has been a hit so far with my students (they need to get enough first - it's quite tricky!)

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jazzx:

stomp224:

My mistake, I just thought that was such an obvious point it didn't warrant a mention.

I've mostly always disliked platform games like Super Mario Bros.

But one of my trumpet students requested that I write out the main theme from that game for him.

So, I went on YouTube to listen to the original version. It took me ages to find, mainly because I kept coming across brilliant live versions of the tune. They included a Japanese guy playing it using finger tapping on two guitars at once, a brilliant flute player doing a beatbox while playing the melody at the same time, a jazz version by a Stanford student and also, conducted by the composer (Koji Kondo) himself, a superb live orchestral version.

I just knew that if the live orchestral version had been somehow in the game in 1985, I would be unable to stop playing it - a classic example of my least favourite video game genre made palatable by live music.

PS. Soon we may see a trumpet duet version on YouTube; my arrangement has been a hit so far with my students (they need to get enough first - it's quite tricky!)

Hehe, reminds me of a friend of mine who scored out every Mario theme ever written in one arranged piece and set VSTs to it, sounded perfect. He did it all by ear as well, I'm very jealous of his musical ability!

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Yacolt:

Hehe, reminds me of a friend of mine who scored out every Mario theme ever written in one arranged piece and set VSTs to it, sounded perfect. He did it all by ear as well, I'm very jealous of his musical ability!

If you want to emulate the NES sound further, check out the plug-in linked in this thread. a VST emulation of the NES sound chip oscillators. Remember, only use 4 channels!

Jazzx: Have you been to a Video Games Live concert? I went to the concert in the Southbank Centre last year, it was brilliant! The only piece I wasn't keen on was the Orchestras take on Sonic the hedgehog (a personal fave of mine, musically), but orchestral and solo piano renditions of Mario pieces were superb.

Anyway, here is a couple of vids from last years concert: Sonic Medley & Bioshock

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Retro One - Part 2 My SFX and Music on Xbox community games

Fable 2 audio tribute!

stomp224:

Yacolt:

Hehe, reminds me of a friend of mine who scored out every Mario theme ever written in one arranged piece and set VSTs to it, sounded perfect. He did it all by ear as well, I'm very jealous of his musical ability!

If you want to emulate the NES sound further, check out the plug-in linked in this thread. a VST emulation of the NES sound chip oscillators. Remember, only use 4 channels!

Jazzx: Have you been to a Video Games Live concert? I went to the concert in the Southbank Centre last year, it was brilliant! The only piece I wasn't keen on was the Orchestras take on Sonic the hedgehog (a personal fave of mine, musically), but orchestral and solo piano renditions of Mario pieces were superb.

Anyway, here is a couple of vids from last years concert: Sonic Medley & Bioshock

Thanks! - no I've never been to one of these ...

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Well, the next London one is on the 24th of October!

Im waiting to see if Lionhead run another competition for free tickets before I buy some

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Retro One - Part 2 My SFX and Music on Xbox community games

Fable 2 audio tribute!