I like the idea of changing tribute into belief but I also think that could be taken a step further. Choosing to funnel your belief into the manifestation of certain powers would only be the tip of the iceberg. This would simply give your people an idea of where you wanted to advance and would set them to figuring out how to do X. A prime example would be a fireball miracle. Once your people knew that you wanted to discover the power of elemental fire they would begin studying it. Small groups of scholars would take trips to a volcano's edge, taking samples and studying the physical manifestations of fire in the world. They'd scour the universities to find any ancient text relating to fire and heat. After a certain amount of time they'd come to a realization of what the physical form of fire was and bring their discoveries to you. At this stage an epic quest of discovery would begin. Even if the base mechanic boiled down to "search the land for X of these" and "use very weak fireball spell on this item / building / person and watch the results" quests, a deep spiritual meaning could be tied to the spell. Information and background on that spell would be introduced to the player so that by the time they had reached the end of the quest chain they would truly feel like they understood how the spiritual fire became manifested, unlocking the full-powered ability only when that point is reached. After the initial discovery of fire was complete you would be able to either set your scholars to researching further advances in that power or to begin discovering new powers and abilities. This would add almost a rts / rp progression to the game and would make multiplayer games all the more interesting. Having only a set amount of scholars to research things you'd have to choose what powers you had a greater need of sooner. Using a belief system would limit the number of powers the player could amass and the rate at which they could gain them, but adding a story driven quest of understanding would bring the player back into the world, helping them to forget that they're playing a game and really engrossing them in the world. If you have to work for something, through working for it you gain a greater understanding and appreciation for what you have. Learning how fire was first forged from the infinite nothingness of the void, how the first nomadic peoples discovered and harnassed it, how the physical form relates to the spiritual form, how fire can bring life instead of death (military units in a frozen area of the map would greatly appreciate a burning tree for warmth) and how easily fire can spread and become uncontrolled would ultimately be so much more satisfying to me than just clicking the button, having my total belief be reduced by the cost of the spell I am studying, and immediately gaining control of that power could ever be.

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We can't cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to live our lives in happiness.

I like that, it sounds really cool, and it may be able to fit in quite well with the plans for future B&W. Molyneux said in an interview (if i remember rightly) that as the game progresses through all 5, people will become less and less ignorant of technology and so on and thus depend upon you much less. So taking that one step further, an initial quest could be brought about whereby you actually have very little power, say you can move a few small objects etc. But in order that scholars and so forth are able to actually interact with you, there would have to be several 'trial and error' factions that all believe (in the minority) that they are in direct contact with you, and you must chose, out of the ones that are infact contacting you, which faction to rise to. So say for example, you entered the game on land 1, you have the run of the whole land but are only able to move very small objects, say like a gust of wind in the fields. The vast majority of the land have no interest in you, as they are getting along fine and dandy thank you very much. However, on the fringes are several outlying factions of people, all attempting the interact with you in different ways. However out of these, say 10, only 4 factions are actually getting it right, in different ways. So now is your first choice, which faction are you going to reply to? Each has its own pro's and cons and each brings with it a different mentality, say one faction is making blood-thirsty sacrifices to get you to talk to them, others try to contact you through meditation, others still just go out and get drunk all the time and drink a toast to you and are generally a bit of a 'challenge.' Naturally, the rest of the people of Eden think they are a tad eccentric. Following this, your chosen people then would face a threat from the other factions who are looking on them with jealousy, or perhaps downright bloody-minded disbelief and outrage, and they leave the land promising to mame them and generally ***** them over. However, now they are alone with you and the non-believers, and sensing your weakness but faithful of your powers nonetheless, they set about researching and generally aiding you and nursing you back to full health. This fits with the idea that not only are people generally less (or at least, so they think) dependant upon you, but the result of this is a catastrophic loss of your power, so you are now dependant upon those first faithful few to give you a leg up and back into the drivers seat. Those jealous types who beggered off now wage war against your people, which by this point includes all the inhabitants of the first land (if you complete it), thus the threat is created, and the game may begin, but is not restricted simply to others attacking only you, but also each other. This may also leave a doorway open for the birth of a new god(s), a-la B&W1, thanks to the efforts of those you chose to ignore. So I guess the end result then would be an aetheist world, with only a few believers that are divided upon your return and the resulting religious carnage that ensues suddenly leaves all the non-believers in desperate need of a god to combat that which they no longer understand, to Shield them from the cross-fire or lead them into war; of course, in which ever way you see fit. hmmm, went off on one a bit there, I like MRFLIBBLE's idea is all :-)

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Large Hadron Collider - because fleshlites are for wusses

I think we've nowhere near explored the true potential of godly power. In the end (meaning something like part 5 of the series) I hope to see a god who can speed up time, travel back in time, create new land, send every inhabitant of the island to other places, or straight to the afterlife if he wants to. I hope that by then, winning does not depend on godly powers, but on getting humans with free will to do what you want them to. Then you'll notice that splitting the red sea might be just as easy as creating a slight breeze, but no more or less usefull. I'm currious about what would happen to a god at a time when science is beginning to rise. Where scientists will actually try to disprove what beleivers call miracles and evidence of devine power. I'd like to see the option to choose a messiah as your messenger to the people, preaching your codes of conduct to the people. I'd like to see you put visions of the apocalypse you have in store for the world inplanted in a villager's brain, making him a prophet, and then try to safeguard him to prevent him from getting stoned to death. And I'd definitly LOVE to see that apocalypse made by the player.

Yes! definitely! As well as going back in time it would be nice to have the run of all the previos lands you've completed at will - I read before B&W2 was released that this was the plan, but its not in there! I like the idea of safeguarding a messiah. Hopefully the full extent of godly power as you say will be explored more thoroughly as the games progress. It would be nice as well to have a pack released containing all B&Ws, perhaps even with a holy grail - a winXP patch for B&W1... :-)

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Large Hadron Collider - because fleshlites are for wusses

one thing: the things with the scientests... i dont think anyone will not believe in gods when everybody see goldy miracles every day.

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true, but just like between part 1 and part 2, you could have been 'away' for a while.

what about that divine feeling of sending invincable warriors into battle, creating your own heroes? 1 or 2 heroes in a platoon should do. It would use a great deal of mana, and would be purchased from the tribute menu. I guess you could personalize the strengths and weakness e.g. make them nearly immortal (like hercules) You can use them as a prophet to your people or, a weapon of war. New Scrolls will enable you to use them in their own quests, and tutorials.

i'd definatly want some more AI into this game. one of the things i really hoped for in Black and White 2 was that the followers created their own buildings. i'd much rather be the divine watcher that pops in sometimes then the stressed out divine contractor and builder to see them trade, travel from one city to another, move to a new house and even wage their own wars.. maybe even a holy crusade and from there on i then influence their choices.. instead of being the person (or god) thinking for them.

i totaly agree with you about the A.I. if the peasents were just alittle more stupied (and im talking about like 1 less i.q. than they have now) you would hear " hey god im FINIIISHED" from every single bathroom in your city. so if they could build their own city them selfs i would be glad... i rather be a dead god than rule over a bunch of retards :/

yeah some relics from times lost and maybe some battles would be cool - maybe a place where a battle takes place involving say more than 200 soldiers could become haunted, possibly you could zoom down and hear the battle still going - that could be scripted for a custom map...

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Large Hadron Collider - because fleshlites are for wusses

this http://www.loinhead.net/2006/12/31/bw3-not-for-a-long-time/ sounds kinda depressing in a way, but actually I think it could be very good news (I don't mean that in a "this game sucks I'm wasting your time/screen area kinda way). The bite outlines that the same team (probably) for B&W1 worked on B&W2 (confirmation anyone?), and that the motivation may/would have faded away following B&W1. So although it says no B&W3 for a long time if ever, then perhaps a new team would be working on it, and then who knows? With a fresh set of minds working on the game there may be a whole new level of enthusiasm that comes out, and hopefully you would be able to feel that when playing it. I hope so anyway. And I suppose if it didn't come out for a while then graphics technology would have moved on to such an extent that it will blow us all away (probably will me at least - I can't afford a new comp more than once about every 4 years or more!). Anyway - I l'al bit off the topic I suppose but a thought nonetheless.

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Large Hadron Collider - because fleshlites are for wusses

Although I've never played any of the BnW games myself, I have many good friends here who seem almost dedicated to the BnW series. The people here are very helpful as well, and there are many, many loyal fans of the series. I am for BnW 3.

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Suggestions for Black and White III: Technical Improvements Add more frames to the Conscience-s; they move and glide across the screen very well, but their mouths move very roughly. Add some fuzz to the air; the most common problem in games is that the air is invisible, and that takes away from the texture and depth of the game. Overdramatize a bit: Make the Miracles look like ultimate godlike powers, instead of a little "poof" magician's act. Also, make the torch/fountain in the Village Center increase in the torch or fountain's height and power, and not just in a pillar moving up. Add more dramatic music. Let the idle music sound noticeably different, so that it is interesting. Try to make sure that the camera does not go inside things, which is quite common. Gameplay Improvements Make the battle scenes more dramatic; when a Miracle is cast, let the people be flung around in a way that makes your adrenaline pump. Add more Miracles, and perhaps a way to create your own Miracles, kind of like creating your own spells in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Let the player become a human or creature at will, and/or control the Creature directly. Also, when the player is a person, let other people and/or creatures bow down to the player as though he/she was a Messiah of sorts. Adding on to this idea, let the player adventure freely through the land, participate in battles, and be attacked by enemy Towns/Cities. However, let the player maintain godlike powers, as in Miracles for his/her little hands, the ablity to scale massive obstacles easily, etc. An RPG and an RTS game combined. Give the Creature less routine actions. Let his actions reflect all of his emotions. For example, if the Creature has many conflicting emotions, let him act confused. Adding on to this idea, let the Creature have more specific feelings towards more specific things: if he likes this person, if he hates that species of animal, etc; personal grudges, in a way. Make it so that there are not only 4 Wonder Miracles to cast, and when they are cast, let them appear different each time. In B&W2, the Miracles were sort of a one-hit-wonder, and were quite routine after that. Also, let more powerful Miracles be availible to the player (Wonders, etc.) at an earlier time in the game. When I'm playing B&W2, I often have to devote my resources for several lands just to get a Siren wonder, and when I get it, the enemy already has a volcano Wonder, and I'm seriously behind on my buildings. Let the gameplay be more in-depth, in terms of Silver Scrolls, Tribute options, and more importantly, the path between good and evil. Let the two sides mingle and let neither become more enticing, but instead let them affect the ending of the game, and more importantly, the storyline. If you have played other games, such as Indigo Prophecy, the endings are different each time, which makes the game more interesting. As Forrest Gump said, "You never know what you're gonna get." Building on the side-quests, let them be less of a single-step, make-one-choice quest, and more of a multi-step, build-your-story type. However, don't make the quests too long, in terms of a quest that goes on forever and you lose interest. Let the storyline constantly change, and let your heart pound at every corner. Also, let the rewards be less routine, such as Miracles and buildings that you can only get in that quest, and not just Tribute. Also, add a Quest Log. Building on the Tribute options, let the player have many creations of his/her own. As I say this, I refer back to the Miracle-making topic I addressed earlier. Let the player forge their own spells, homes, Temples, etc. so that they can proudly call them their own, and not be stuck rigidly to stock, general-effect items and options. Examples are as follows: Combining the Lava and Fire Miracles to make a more powerful, and much more dramatic, burn-and-melt power. Changing the effects and the looks of each built Temple and other buildings, but also allowing the player to choose the stock type(s) if he/she chooses. Creating custom hand Gestures. I find that the gestures are far too exact, and are more of a nuisance then a tool. Perhaps allow multiple Gestures for one Miracle. That concludes my suggestion list for Black and White III. If you wish to contact me, email my public email, kilfio@yahoo.com. Thanks, Kilfio (pronounced Kil-FIE-oh :P)

Ok heres the plot I am thinking at the end of war of the gods the people decided gods were too dangerous so the gods were imprisoned by their own people. And these temples in which gods are imprisoned stops gods from entering the earths atmosphere. Some treasure hunter accidentally releases you. You are now in colonial times and you are recieving prayers from all over this god deprived world prayers from native american tribes being attacked by colonies that bring disease and famine with them. There is a ship out at sea suffering the tourments of the weather and many other prayers to be answered but what ones will you answer? You can choose 3 tribes and 3 beasts that are capable for caring for the tribe while your gone what will you do? SO BASICALLY WHAT I AM PROPOSING IS... Setting in colonial times Multiple creatures and multiple tribes that you can choose yourself A sea based tribe (and therefore a sea based creature) You are the only god ( The imprisoned gods thing allows for another god expansion pack or option. Multiplayer (it was so good in the first one, this time however it might be good if you can have a cooperative mode or an ability to play cooperatively) In your city crimes should be commited, children should get lost houses should catch on fire all of this should happen randomly and solving these should get you credit. Have some scroll missions but try and have as many mission as possible naturally occuring without the warning of the scroll. What happens should reflect on how good or bad your city management is. If someones jumping off a cliff its going to be due to the poor handling of your people. If people pray to you for help find something it shows good handling Direct control of the creature. So far black and white has been a strategy series maybe also make it a 3rd person action as well if you can directly control your creature as a mini god almost

In black and white 3 id pretty much like to see MUCH larger maps and more maps Also not losing most the features we were expecting in the actual realease. Also making the game to force you to use war more, not neccicerly in an evil way and for it to much more complex other than larger platoon on smaller platoon combat. For example cavalry, Axe men all having different strengths and weaknesses etc etc and even terrian advantages Also I'd like to see much larger hordes attacking you, much more hordes with seige so you just cant simply ingore the attackers behind a giant wall or just get your creature to do everything. Also the enimmie having the ability to impress you out of your city aswell or parts of your city. Maybe having boats and thee ability to fish would not be a bad idea either.

To make it more like being a god you dont directly control your peoples armies instead order them to go to war and under a generals leadership or your creature they will fight on thier own. Though u can help in the fight using your powers if u can. and each race are unique and speical. For example like the thread starter stated to put more and different races like Arabs are good on living or fighting on desert terrain and maybe not good on different places or areas

Excellent post Etimos. Alot of people seem to dislike the Epic miracle system of BW2, so here, I suggest an alternative method that may intrigue some. To cast an epic in BW2, all that's needed is the building, and to have villagers pray at the tower of the miracle. Although this prevents instant casting, it isn't extremely significant because, honestly, sparing a bunch of villagers to pray for a while isn't that big of a deal if you get to go ahead and fend off your enemies meanwhile. It's all rather easy as a god. But what if you were occupied while casting the miracle? The god uses hand gestures to cast his miracles, and certain gestures obviously represent certain miracles. So I propose The RITUAL System: More complex spells, require more complex symbolism. To cast an epic miracle, the god may need to draw 10-20 symbols on the earth. Maybe the ritual must be completed in a specific place for each given miracle. To cast the Siren miracle, the god must perform the ritual over water. Maybe the symbols for a volcano must be performed over the location where the volcano will appear. This allows gods to see each other casting the miracle and take preparations. Faster casters clearly get an upper hand. Some symbols (the ones that accumulate to make a pretty picture) drawn during a ritual do not fade, allowing things like a pentagram to be drawn with circles around it, to look like a proper ritual. The accuracy of the drawings in accordance with certain parameters, could help determine the maximum strength of the miracle. as well as other factors: during the ritual a symbol may mean belief while another may mean mana (read below, COST). Making the mana symbol big and the belief symbol small, causes the game engine to compute the ratio between their size and make the miracle so that it would drain an intense amount of mana, but would leave alot of free belief. This all, of course, makes daring symbols accurately much more important, so that players can no longer lazily scribble on the earth just to get a desired effect, they have to draw what they mean. a mega death ritual could require a corpse at the center of the symbols. A child could be more powerful than an old guy, as usual. a mega foliage miracle could require a tree, and could create an entire forest. a flame wall ritual could be cast to create a semi-permanent wall of flame. a mega shield could even require ore or wood, depending on the strength of the shield you desire, or maybe the deterimes if it is a magic or physical shield. why are permanent or semi-permanent effects important? First, it makes one feel more godly, and second, it creates an immense amount of depth. A firewall miracle is excellent, sure, great defense (too long of a casting time to be used offensively), but fire burns everyone. A firewall in front of your own gate would obviously prevent your own people from going out, as well as anyone from coming in. It also demands another god to fight, so he can send his creature to douse the flame, or some other balance system. isn't it ridiculous that you can move the whole sun in the heavens, but not a cloud? the rain ritual could provide water for your fields for as long as it lasts or is canceled. The drawback being that after prolonged rain, your citizens get righteously pissed off. What does this all COST? Here is another interesting proposition. assuming a belief system is re-implemented and there is a global belief value for the current map, the system could go something like this. Casting a ritual for an instant miracle like a gigantic explosion could cost an immense amount of mana and whatever the ritual may require. But more permanent, or longer effects could take up a percentage of your belief for the time that the miracle is in effect, in addition to draining mana. All aspects of a ritual would of course be decided thematically, and not in a formulaic manner. It annoys me that a fireball always costs X mana, and it's always the same fireball. The symbol for fire is up and down zig-zag lines. So would it not make sense that the more zigzag lines the stronger and bigger the fireball and the more mana it consumes? I think this system would be extremely immesreful, is balacned, and allows for a wide variety of experimentation on the part of the user. It creates conversations where people discuss their methods of casting rituals and the effects that occur. Do different animals matter or the type of tree when used? what happens if certain symbols are done differently, or cast in different places? underwater earthquakes do what? On another note- Assuming a more intriguing, much-needed villager AI improvement is at coming, preferably with learning and having villagers rebel or commit crimes randomly (as suggested by others) and more importantly (for the evil in you guys) to allow more relevant behavior. villagers should learn like your creature. Not individually, but the nation as a whole. If an evil god sacrifices people for mana, your villagers should pay attention to see who you sacrifice and do it themselves. Sacrificing all prisoners of war? good, so are we. babies you say? puff in a cloud of blue flame. This means that when you take over another village, you must also convert the people's habits to reflect your own alignment, lifestyle (or whatever your existence is called) and needs. a nice set miracles to add would bless and curse. It sends out a nice message, drains your mana while active, and could be very interesting. A blessed soldier could be a hero, kicking a*s left and right, a blessed breeder could be more fertile and give birth in less time, a regular citizen would be more productive in whatever venture they found themselves in. Blessed individuals are happier, faster, learn faster, and are more productive. cursed villagers are more complicated because they'd need to do something wrong. punish those those who deviate from what you want, to shape your people. a good god will curse a theif, sending out a message that it will not be tolerated. The person would suffer bad health, be unlikeable by his peers, unproductive, and may change his lifestyle. cursing enemy villagers would be nice too. maybe missionaries could have a small area where the god can act in (some acts only) and pray for a blessing or curse on someone, and depending on your inclination, you could do so. Doing what the missionary asks increases your belief of course, but you cant really be expected to constantly be doing such petty things?

In reference to your idea about the "staying symbols" for hand gestures - does anyone else draw pics with a poured fire miracle when bored, and on full mana? The idea of "multi gesture" miracles could be expanded further - specific "counter gestures" to each symbol, to weaken the miracle (dependant on how well drawn, how many finished etc) and in multiplayer you could have allied gods casting symbols together for "super epics", that come from combining epics - e.g. if I draw all the hurricane symbols, and you draw the volcano next to it, we get a roving column of fire and lava flying across the map.

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Internet problems fixed...

Looks like I'm back.

i am not going to suggest some retarded idea like Sea gods, i am going to suggest Ideas that i think will sell miore games and make the game generally more enjoyable PLEASE READ IT as i really think this would make for a fantastic game. it might have been a mistake to add in armies to the game. hear me out about this. the fact is that a god and his followers are more powerful than any army, an army of literally any size can attack you and you will defeat them, if you can't throw miracles you can use hand forceing and throwing rocks, its impossible to be defeated unless you let them. the fact of the matter is, a god in black and white is supposed to lead a tribe, a tribe does not build massive cities or huge armies, a tribe doesn't wage massive warfare with other cities. get rid of this stupid system of the more impressive a city is the more people go their, i have never heard anything so retarded in my life, it doesn't work like that at all in ral life and i have no idea why they implemented such a absoloutly idiotic way of defeating a god. if the people could simply leave a city by their own free will like that, wouldn't all the evil gods be defeated because all their followers would pack up and leave to go to a good god? a tribe is just that, a tribe, and black and white was better when it was bout making people beleive in you as their god, thats what its supposed to be all about, not making bigger armies or nice cities, this is a game that is supposed to be about religion!! i want to play as a god, not a general or a city govenor!! also i think you should be made to rely more on your creature, in the currect black and white 2 you can not use your creature at all and still win when in the first one he was vital to your plan wether your good or evil. infact, the creature has become a bit of a trouble to have, he needs to be constantly monitered so he doesn't eat all your villagers/not enough or build enoug or not attack trees, you also have to build your city so he can walk around in it and sometimes he just gets stuck and stands their with a bubble over his head saying "i can't do that". the creature should be made alot more powerful, alot more useful and a hell of alot more independant. where are all the gods? why don't the gods have names anymore? why don't they all have personalities anymore? why can't i befrend somegods and attack others? Bring back multiple gods, make islands have several gods on that i can choose to attack or befrend. bring in some form off incredibly basic diplomacy wether you choose to ally or are forced to like in BnW 1, give each god a name, a symbol, a personality and a alighnment. i liked the way how you had this rivalry with one god (nemesis) and several minor gods that you had to go through first (Lethys, Khazzar) so make the third black and white have that too. Also, what the hell were you playing at when you focused so much on the graphics? i don't want fantastic graphics because most people can't even play BnW 2 at full graphics, cities get too big and the game becomes awkward Scale the whole thing down again, i liked village rivalry rather than very big and over the top awkward warfare. focus on gameplay and make the graphics average next time. REMOVE GOD BUILDING!! also, make it so the number of follwers a god has directly conveys that gods strength, in BnW 2 a god with a medium size tow can easily have as much mana as a god with a massive city simply by devoting more followers to worship, make it so all of you villagers generate a small amount of mana whatever they're doing, so each villager generates x amount of mana every x seconds, you can still have deciple worshippers but they generate far less mana than they currently do. this will make villagers much more imprtant than they currently are, i have won entire maps without any villagers i just make houses and godbuild them and my impressivnemss begins to take cities vary some gods, you have done this a little bit by bringing in a god of death, by why not make several gods each with their own theme and set of miracles, like a god of life who has the ability to create fauna and revive villagers and a god of Fire who has powerul lava and flame spells and make each god have some miracles that are unique to that god and convery their theme. make bring back that system by which each village had an array of spells that could be accessed after they starrted beleiving in you and each group of peopl,s are good at different spells, in BnW1 it was the Egyptian tribes gave them access to powerful building spells; Tibetan tribes offered them mental magic; Zulu tribes offered battle spells the villagers are also too advanced, i feel like a leader of the people, not their god, i remember in BnW1 they would be so amazed by my actions it was fun, if i picked up a rock and put it down, they would dance around the rock and so forther. make the villagers more tribal and primitive! Bland and white 1 was popular for a reason, and you have taken that away with black and white 2, go back to the roots of why people liked it but expand on that, rather than adding in new and unnecesary things. the lionhead team had the perfect recipe for a game, you had a brilliant concept and fantastic characters and a brilliant way of narrating (the consciences talk to you). you had the recipe for the perfect cottage pie and then you made it with dog meat!!

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but I think there should be a different selection of starting creatures. I like the Cow, Ape, and Carnivore idea, but it needs something else and I can't put my nose on it.

Have they even started bnw3?> or are they talking about it or what? I found the big problem with bnw2 is that it got a bit boring a tad too fast! i found this because there was no online option for it, and i think the reason black and white 1 was so popular and made these msg boards really busy was because of mp! After a while there is only so much you can do, but with mp it had clans etc etc and you actaully would have a challange rather then playing the computer all the time! dont get me wrong i love both the games, but thats what kept me playing bnw for 3 years rather than playing bnw2 for less the one ! bnw2 had alot of amazing things, the grapthics i loved.. but missed mp alot! im pretty sure alot of people will back me up on that one!

^^ what he said

 Quoting: BLACKTOOTH1

Have they even started bnw3?> or are they talking about it or what?

Apparently not, they're currently working on Fable 2 and a secret game. Personally, I think the secret game will be BW style, but they've said that they're not returning to BW for a while.