deliriousstudios:

Gnomes do it in holes. (Girlfriend played Mass Effect on PC - absolutely no problems whatsoever, except for the fact that she enjoyed it a bit too much)

lol now that is funny I don't care who you are.

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DarthTrethon:

In conclusion yes DAO is a mature game since only mature people can appreciate it for what it is while teens probably won't.

a game that uses a teenage's view of what mature is?

Mike Laidlaw (one of the designers):

Making a decision early, deciding to make a mature game, to target an older audience, then knowing that all the way through... you play and it's like, "that's really challenging. I wasn't expecting that kind of motivation for these characters". That mixes up with, "I wasn't expecting to have that much sex". It goes into the same space. It works as one cohesive unit. It's kind of like having a blue period.

Sex and violence does not make something mature. Unless you have the attitude of oh look I can do X hahaha. A mature rating might come from just having those things, but a mature game does not.

To say mature games aren't played by teenagers is bollocks quite frankly. You're kidding yourself if you think a trailer entitled 'violence trailer' with a metal soundtrack going look how much violence this has, oh and some sex too, is appealing to anyone beyond their teen years.

This will probably be a game, but it's very clear with this trailer they are trying to reach out to the console audience that's never played something like Bauder's Gate.

All this trailer has done is put me off the game slightly.

It does seem as though they've looked at the Witcher and tried to do that.

I really like how we are wanting more and more from our games. Game play is important but without a compelling story and rich character development I think games will always lack what the key features that make other media like books and movies so great.
The real problem comes in the cost of development and the risk to make a game with a great story as it's primary feature.

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much of the problem comes from the difficulties of interactive story telling compared to passive story telling.

The Bag:

DarthTrethon:

In conclusion yes DAO is a mature game since only mature people can appreciate it for what it is while teens probably won't.

a game that uses a teenage's view of what mature is? Mike Laidlaw (one of the designers):

Making a decision early, deciding to make a mature game, to target an older audience, then knowing that all the way through... you play and it's like, "that's really challenging. I wasn't expecting that kind of motivation for these characters". That mixes up with, "I wasn't expecting to have that much sex". It goes into the same space. It works as one cohesive unit. It's kind of like having a blue period.

Sex and violence does not make something mature. Unless you have the attitude of oh look I can do X hahaha. A mature rating might come from just having those things, but a mature game does not. To say mature games aren't played by teenagers is bollocks quite frankly. You're kidding yourself if you think a trailer entitled 'violence trailer' with a metal soundtrack going look how much violence this has, oh and some sex too, is appealing to anyone beyond their teen years. This will probably be a game, but it's very clear with this trailer they are trying to reach out to the console audience that's never played something like Bauder's Gate. All this trailer has done is put me off the game slightly. It does seem as though they've looked at the Witcher and tried to do that.

1st I already stated that sex and violence alone aren't enough to have a mature game but they certainly add to the maturity of a game that has the proper depth. Sex and violence do not constitute maturity but they are part of almost all mature peoples' lives. All I was saying is that you can't judge a game as being for teens just because it has sex and violence. Not to mention that targeting teens is not such a great idea when trying to sell something that requires proof of being older than 17 and costs $60. Sure there are parents who buy these things for their kids but you won't sell millions of copies that was. Not unless you can appeal to the grown up gamers.  

2nd I NEVER said that teens don't play M rated games. What I did say however was that far more grownups(30+) play these games than teens do and that IS true since most gamers are over 30.

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I think the Bag makes a point.   I personally would rather have a more epic soundtrack than a metal one for this type of game. and anytime I have said they are returning to their Baldur's gate roots was I ever under the delusion that the game was anything like BG II. I just meant their fantasy roots. and I agree getting the passion in story telling is what makes them worth while.  An example is BG 2 when you discover the entire truth of your mother and the price of your lineage, the costs of your companions ect. it was emotive and harsh.  I hope they find their way back to that someday, because it was excellent storytelling.  I may enjoy playing DAO. or I at least hope to accept it for what it might be... I just hope the story is because the other stuff mentioned  doesn't mean much to me.

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Using sex & violence as a selling point is not appealing to a mature audience, it's appealing to an audience that gets titillation from such things which is, lets be honest, a teenage one.

Everything they've said about a mature, dark game comes unstuck when they make promotional material focussed on nothing but the most immature version of maturity going.

Can Bioware make mature games, yes they can, will they in this instance, I hope so.

Violence is nothing new in games, hell, sex is nothing new in games but it's these things they're choosing to highlight.  Sell me on the story, the character interaction, the exploration of the human condition, the emotional core, sell me on the stuff that elevates a work to true maturity and not just the level of a popcorn action flick.

Quite so. Going back to your Witcher comparison for a minute or two - The Witcher, I thought, was really quite admirably sophisticated in terms of morality, issues covered, (some) characterisation, the decisions it forced upon you and general intelligence of narrative. A refreshingly mature approach not just for a game, but for any piece of popular entertainment.

And then they decided to tack on those frankly absurd sex scenes with cringe-making naked playing cards to take away as trophies to boot. They were awful. And, as I play on a PC on my living room TV, I had to put up with the GF laughing like a drain when one of them came up I might add.

It was slightly depressing. Here we had an otherwise intelligent and often thought-provoking game, which they'd quite clearly tried to sell to a certain audience by tacking on some cheap thrills for the teenage viewer. The game was certainly much the worse for it.

As you say, it's not the sort of thing that's going to particularly appeal to a mature gaming audience. To be crass for a moment, try appealing to our minds, not our dicks.
By the same rationale, any trailer full of blood, sex and heavy metal is probably not going to do your marketing much if you want people to take your game seriously as something intelligent.

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I wouldnt say I'm a mature person, I'm 18 ture, in this country I'm an adult but ive always seen 18 as the years were you start to become a mature adult but not quite there, So my views on what is mature in a game may differ from alot, But I find most games that have the 18 label on these days arent very mature at all, I find games that feature boobs and blood for the sake of it arent all that mature, and that theres  amount of mature games out there that isnt an 18.

Farhenheight for example was a mature game, and thats not becuase It had a sex scene in it, its becuase of the way emotion plays a part in the game, the way your choices and actions can effect your players emotions, also the way fear is used in the game, like were you had to navigate your way through a maze of documents while playing a clusterphobe, having to control your breathing and her fear.

Also the black officer you played (forgot his name too) the amount of emotion shown between him and his girlfriend before he goes to work, her scared he's going to end up in a body bag, begging him to leave with her to run a shop, but he carnt becuase he likes being a cop, now that scene shows a whole lot of maturity and realism dispite this being a fantasy game.

Also how it deals with your main characters life, just split up with his girlfriend, she come's over to pick up her stuff, and they start talking, you can feel the awkwardness they both feeling talking to each other, or his reaction to the murder the guilt he's going through becuase of this murder. Alot of this game felt very mature, maybe becuase it was deep and it let you discover the characters, then of cource is screws it all up just about half way through when the main character turns in neo.

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"IrishMorn"
If Adon and Sagat step in....ah, what the hell, I'll get drunk and join in on that one.

There are a few things showing the story and emotional depth of DAO. For one there is a prequel novel written by the lead writer of DAO David Gaider which gives a lot of back story to the world and provides some impressive moral dilemmas. Even more impressive than those seen in KOTOR an Mass Effect. Then there are gamplay videos that detail the conversation mechanics how the conversation trees work.

The sex and violence and all that fit the atmosphere very nicely because the theme behind the game is a desperate fight for survival. Many forget that we behave differently in extreme circumstances. Sex and violence and all those things we so readily label age groups with mean a lot more when the next hour will likely be the last hour of your life. That's the position of the characters so it fits the story nicely. 

I'm only in my mid twenties but I've seen enough extreme circumstances not to forget what it means to be alive.

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DarthTrethon:

There are a few things showing the story and emotional depth of DAO. For one there is a prequel novel written by the lead writer of DAO David Gaider which gives a lot of back story to the world and provides some impressive moral dilemmas. Even more impressive than those seen in KOTOR an Mass Effect. Then there are gamplay videos that detail the conversation mechanics how the conversation trees work.

The sex and violence and all that fit the atmosphere very nicely because the theme behind the game is a desperate fight for survival. Many forget that we behave differently in extreme circumstances. Sex and violence and all those things we so readily label age groups with mean a lot more when the next hour will likely be the last hour of your life. That's the position of the characters so it fits the story nicely. 

I'm only in my mid twenties but I've seen enough extreme circumstances not to forget what it means to be alive.

Ho dont get me wrong I'm not saying the game is or isnt mature, I was just offering my opinion on what I think a mature game is, and thats deep and emotional, I havent seen this game to make any accusations on how immature or mature it is, I dont really want to look into a MMO as my computer probably wouldnt run everquest never mind some of the newer mmo's so I dont want to get my self too excited .

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"IrishMorn"
If Adon and Sagat step in....ah, what the hell, I'll get drunk and join in on that one.

I wasn't talking to you. I didn't even read your last post.

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DarthTrethon:

I wasn't talking to you. I didn't even read your last post.

Well sorry, Just assumed you was given that mine was the last one posted and given the nature of my post, also you didnt qoute any one so I didnt exactly know who you was replying to.

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"IrishMorn"
If Adon and Sagat step in....ah, what the hell, I'll get drunk and join in on that one.

Don't take it personally, Sov - he's a mature adult for whom sex and violence are part of his life, all to a metal soundtrack. So he's a little on edge. But it's artistically justified, so it's fine.

Anyway. You're right about Fahrenheit, and as it happens I was thinking about the same game myself in relation to this thread earlier. Up until the point where it went a bit mental in the last third it really was very much as you say - I'm hoping they manage it again with Heavy Rain. More of that sort of thing, please

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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/10/rps-at-e3-dragon-age-origins/

The Bag:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/10/rps-at-e3-dragon-age-origins/

What? some of the media bashing on it? Nothing unexpected although there was surprisingly little of that. Of the dozens of articles about this game that I've read there were only three(including this) that were complaining about the game. With the gore and sexuality you are bound to have those like Fox News and their teams of clueless experts jumping at the opportunity to scream "OMG the children are playing this porn simulator!!!!"(remember Mass Effect?). I think you should have waited for them to do their report before posting a link. That way we would have been more entertained and you could have said "See...I was right...a huge news channel and real experts reported it."

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You really don't read anything do you, I'd love for this to be a great game but I have issues with their positioning, see my earlier posts.

Also read the article, most of his issues are with the script and bad voice acting, which is concerning. Especially when the stuff coming out of ME2 is so .

But yeah, Fox News, that's so obviously me. You've seen the game's I'm involved in creating, I'm so obviously anti-sex & violence.

The Bag:

You really don't read anything do you, I'd love for this to be a great game but I have issues with their positioning, see my earlier posts. Also read the article, most of his issues are with the script and bad voice acting, which is concerning. Especially when the stuff coming out of ME2 is so . But yeah, Fox News, that's so obviously me. You've seen the game's I'm involved in creating, I'm so obviously anti-sex & violence.

I read the article and I know that sex in particular wasn't their complaint but the general feeling of the article but there is this:

Our hero - one of the Grey Wardens, the group to which players will belong in an effort to fight back against the Blight, and the Arch Demon bringing it about - has a present for a lady, Morrigan. It’s a magical book that she has been looking for. She’s going to be very pleased to receive it. Once it’s dragged from our inventory to hers, she responds with some of the most excruciatingly dreadful flirtation I’ve ever seen. The acting is very weak, my face screwed up as I wrote the word “AWFUL” on my pad in the dark.

So I couldn't resist making the Fox news comparison One of Morrigan's lines can be heard in the trailer and she definitely doesn't have the voice of a teenage girl nor is she a girly girl. Also considering that you have to play quite a bit(around 30 hours) to get to the sex scene there is a definitely mature approach to sex. Unlike Fable 2 where I act like an idiot for 2 minutes and sleep with any given woman or more at the same time. Then marriage is at first sight basically since maintaining contact with any possible spouse without marriage is impossible....they all have hundreds of clones running around so the marriage aspect of Fable 2 is based on looks only. THAT is a lot closer to teenage fantasy than DAO will ever get.

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I give up, really I do... I've made it clear (or attempted to) that it's the way they are choosing to promote it I have issues with.

You may think our approach to sex is more immature, in the context of the game that may be a valid assertion (I don't know, I haven't played Dragon Age), but we're not advertising it going 'ooh look at the sex'.

matneee:

Anyway. You're right about Fahrenheit, and as it happens I was thinking about the same game myself in relation to this thread earlier. Up until the point where it went a bit mental in the last third it really was very much as you say - I'm hoping they manage it again with Heavy Rain. More of that sort of thing, please

Yeah lets just hope they dont *** it up half way through , lol.

The Bag:

You may think our approach to sex is more immature, in the context of the game that may be a valid assertion (I don't know, I haven't played Dragon Age), but we're not advertising it going 'ooh look at the sex'.

I thought the approach to sex in fable 1 and 2 wasnt immature but tounge in cheek, I havent seen this Dragon Age or played it so I dont know about that one, but calling a game mature and realistic becuase it has sex and gore in it doesnt seem all that mature, Yes  people had sex in the med times, but they do in the modern world too and theres games like Saints Row and GTA that show sex in modern times but I wouldnt label them as mature games.

Yeah sure not suger coating sex and gore in games would make it realistic but having it as the selling point of the game doesnt make it mature, thats like saying 300 was a mature movie , yeah it was entertaining but it was clearly aimed at the teens. In all honesty I dont see what the big deal is about sex in video games any way, unless its use as an effect on the actual storyline like in games like Fahrenhieght or Mass Effect, I dont really see the appeal.

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"IrishMorn"
If Adon and Sagat step in....ah, what the hell, I'll get drunk and join in on that one.

The Bag:

I give up, really I do... I've made it clear (or attempted to) that it's the way they are choosing to promote it I have issues with. You may think our approach to sex is more immature, in the context of the game that may be a valid assertion (I don't know, I haven't played Dragon Age), but we're not advertising it going 'ooh look at the sex'. As I said I give up, you seem to be incapable or unwilling to comprehend any point anyone else has made that might contradict your own and as such this really is getting pointless.

I know....you couldn't if you wanted to. But the ability to marry and have children and play as either male or female were heavily advertised while nothing meaningful could be taken from the Fable II trailers....except the ability to make choices. That is more mature sounding when advertised than what it actually ended up being. Now a company like BioWare that has been making RPGs with extensive conversations expanding through dozens of hours of conversation in each game they made and considering all the conversational options available with each response the player gives in every conversation(3 to 4 different options per response). They really don't need to say the game will be mature because for one they've already shown it in all their games and in DAO.

If you haven't played a BioWare game yet pick up KOTOR or rent DAO when it comes out. This is no teenage game....mainly because the average teenager doesn't like reading and this game has tons of that. Then you need to spend hours and hours raising your approval rating with the romance options before getting to the sex scene. That requires patience and being at ease reading through the tons of responses that are available to the player. All this can be seen in plenty of other videos of the game so they are advertising the game just fine. The trailers simply showed other aspects we haven't seen so much of before.

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The Bag:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/06/10/rps-at-e3-dragon-age-origins/

Can't say I'm *entirely* surprised they had the room laughing at the demo.
What strikes me most at this point is that how many people who genuinely want Dragon Age to be now seem to be quite worried by the tone their publicity is taking. Put off, even. If it's supposed to be an intelligent game, their recent advertising certainly appears to be at odds with the idea. A fair number of punters look to be left with a very different impression indeed.

Still, no way to tell either way until the game is out I suppose. Very odd PR decisions though - it's started to become a bit of an industry joke, which is probably not what Bioware were aiming for

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Just for the record I've played almost every game Bioware has developed, I'm a huge fan of their work and have great respect for what they've done.  But I'm not going to blindly assume this will be great because they've produced great games in the past.

The more they should of it the more I think 'hmmm', the more they shove violence and sex front and center in their marketing push the more I'm put off it.

As I've been saying all along, I'm not making any judgements about the game (Darth you keep arguing about the game, I don't think anyone else in this thread is) in all likelihood I will get it and enjoy it.  But because of their recent promotional focus it's moved away from being a day 1 purchase to waiting for the reviews.

As for the Fable 2 promo stuff including the family, that was part of the attempt at the emotional side of things, not the visceral act.

Mass Effect 2 on the other hand will be a day 1 purchase.

Bioware are known, by those that know them, for their stories, characters, depth, etc but the promo material for DA chooses to highlight none of that.  It's like they are trying to entice the audience that wouldn't normally go near a Bioware game. 

The Bag:

Mass Effect 2 on the other hand will be a day 1 purchase.

Unless of cource there next trailer includes Garret(or what ever you named him) Sheperd having hardcore uncencored sex with Ashley Williams while brutally murdering Keith David with a knife.  while saying in large bold white letters "expect dis ***"

The Bag:

Bioware are known, by those that know them, for their stories, characters, depth, etc but the promo material for DA chooses to highlight none of that.  It's like they are trying to entice the audience that wouldn't normally go near a Bioware game. 

Maybe there trying to bring in a wider audience, given the success of games like Gears of War and Saints Row 2 it wouldnt be a bad idea profit wise but it sorta gives a large butt *** to the fans. I dont see why though becuase they've received a high amount of success by doing what they've always done best, it doesnt seem a wise idea to suddenly want a change in direction, but what do I know.

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"IrishMorn"
If Adon and Sagat step in....ah, what the hell, I'll get drunk and join in on that one.

This looks interesting. Hope it's brutal, I'm gonna check it out once it's rentable.

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Fighting fire with fire burns the whole world.