Ehh, I get the impression it's a majority desire for health care reform. Only a vocal minority who have a something to lose from health care change are really against it. What the problem is, as near as I can tell, is that the Republicans have no confidence in the proposal of the Democrats. No surprises there. But what I'm not hearing from any Republicans is a realistic alternative way of reforming health care so it can actually do its job.

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The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one.

The problem Del is our Government here in the USA have a way of screwing legislation up that they deem might have a benifit for the American masses.  Examples of said legislation that were on sound principle are Social Security(I'll never see a dime of it when I retire)  Medicare and Medicaid [ Government Insurance for the Elderly, disabled, etc. etc only pays a small portion of their health care and doesn't pay for all the meds some folks need (aka my retired parents are discovering this out now)]

The biggest problem that many Americans and not just Republicans are haveing issue with is how is our government  is planning on finding the money that they do not have to spend to fund said programs.  Americans historically do not like to pay taxes, and when the government is wanting to raise our taxes to pay for a program that is not necessary or is full of pork then we tend to speak out.  More so when money is tight do to a recession that could be classified as a depression.

Sorry, but we are talking about my pocket book and  not yours.

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Gradius1:

I smell another dream to crush...

suzanne536 brute

suzanne536:

The biggest problem that many Americans and not just Republicans are haveing issue with is how is our government  is planning on finding the money that they do not have to spend to fund said programs.  Americans historically do not like to pay taxes, and when the government is wanting to raise our taxes to pay for a program that is not necessary or is full of pork then we tend to speak out.  More so when money is tight do to a recession that could be classified as a depression.

Sorry, but we are talking about my pocket book and  not yours.

Not necessary? Care to explain why?

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Cretin=

brainless, stupid and full of pointless information that makes no sense and appeals only to other cretins. They can be found in every single internet forum, where they race to post as many mind-numbing messages as possible.

The biggest problem is that Americans, in general, are stupid. They believe the hype spread by the republicans, the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. In fact, just yesterday, a new ad came out; this one attacking women with breast cancer. According to the conservatives, the health care system is an excuse to kill old people, mandate sex changes and abortions, a place for death panels and now it's also a plot to kill women with breast cancer. And the people here are stupid enough to eat it up. Even when informed people, who actually research this stuff tell them differently, they still don't believe it. I mean, any person with any sense knows that it's all a crock of ***.

To suzanne; they are talking about raising the taxes on people with the money to afford it. As it is, I am taxed at a higher rate than people who have a billion times my salary. What kind of *** is that? They should pay their fair share. If you make more, you pay more, that's the way it goes.

 Also to say it is unnecessary is just ignorant. My husband and I are two of those 45 million people. Are you saying that we don't deserve to be healthy because we can't afford it? My husband has a job, I'm a college student, we pay our taxes, give to charity when we can, yet we still don't deserve health care? I've been sick for months, but I can't find out what's wrong with me because they want to charge us a rate that is almost as much as my rent, just for basic insurance! I could be dying of stomach cancer for all I know, but unless I am actually about to die, I can't go see what's wrong. I have thousands of dollars in medical debt from the time I had to go to the ER and found out that had I waited any longer I would have died of pneumonia, which makes it even harder for us to get a rate But, you're right, it's an unnecessary plan.

Sorry for your pocketbook, but we're talking about my family's health, not yours.

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suzanne536:

Sorry, but we are talking about my pocket book and  not yours.

Actually we are talking about mine too. I already pay taxes so other people can get the health care they need. I'm generally a very healthy person with little to no problems, yet I have no problem giving some of my money so others can be healthy too.

What you're really saying is that Americans are selfish, isn't it? Are you seriously saying that having a little bit of extra cash is more important than the well being of someone else in your country? Why don't you speak out against the government using your taxes to over fund the military instead? Or are you perfectly happy with invading other countries and making more people suffer?
Don't kid yourself, America isn't poor, and neither are you. There are nations out there who don't have the luxury to go on the internet and chat about this kind of thing.
Since you're on a GAMING website, I'll assume you've spent money on such things too. If money is really tight for you, I think you might have to rethink your lifestyle slightly, but I can't honestly take you seriously when you think it's going to seriously affect you and not help others.

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The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one.

I am going to tell you all a small story about my recent life.    I have Supra ventricular Tachychardia, self diagnosed.


Of course there were at least three different visits to NHS doctors first confirm this medically...     After this we went private...why?  Because my dads work agreed to pay for me to go private...no way on earth we could have afforded to.

This led to a 5 more visits to a doctor...at least....then a visit to a specialist....the a pre-op session.  Then a 3 hour operation...after which the cost had gone so high my dads work wont cover me on this illness anymore.   And you know what?   It failed....they couldn't cure it and I have to try again in 6 months...


Thats for ONE illness, one of many reasons I am in and out of doctors and hospitals.... and there is no way I could have afforded to pay for all of that...pay all that money for an operation than didn't work anyway...     now if my dads work hadn't been as kind as they had, we could've gone to the NHS and not payed a penny...  and hey private couldn't do it so they couldn't have done much worse.       So yeah I'm glad people like del pay their taxes which goes towards my healthcare...the only reasons I'm even having the operations is because I have been told I can not apply to be a firefighter in my local area otherwise and because it is getting worse; I am only 17 and it has a long time to keep getting worse, until it is a serious health threat...and without the NHS I would have to sit and know that...know that because I don't have the money I'm watching my life slip away...that I can't do the things I wanted to do.... 

And of course that means I have no problems in paying taxes that go towards healthcare for other people.   If you've got the money to give....and don't feel you should. Then something somewhere has gone seriously wrong, what else are you going to use it for...some new paint in your sitting room?      New paint???...help people who can't afford healthcare have a better life???  There shouldn't really be much of a question there should there.?

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Me and Mortalitis...and some other guy?


Anony: Strip and all your problems will go away

"according to Palin"

I stopped reading after that.  

The ups of an NHS massively outweigh the negatives in my opinion.  I'd happily pay tax for those kinds of things.

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.
This is my sig, this is my gun
This is for you, this is for fun.

We in Norway pay 40% of our salary to taxes. You might say "wow", or you might say "you must all be poor paying that much!"

But no, we're not. Actually, Norway is the richest country in the world and the population amongst the richest in the world. Our living standard is the highest in the world as well. We still pay 40% taxes.

I can throw myself in front of a car and expect the bill at the hospital to be nothing to the amount of a game.

Hell, our health care system is SO , that Michael Moore opted to show the French health care because ours sounds like a fairy tale. We still pay 40% in taxes.

I went to Iceland once and broke my arm, and the health care system in Norway gave me MONEY to cover it. I still pay 40% taxes.

Had I been a citisen of the states, I'd probably be fighting for every penny I could get now. I would not have this computer, nor would I have my awesome brand new monitor.

Ohh, and did I mention that a person working at the store earns almost as much money as a doctor in the U.S? He still pays 40% taxes.

This may sound farfetched, but taxes are not money lost. Think of the tax system as Wall Street! The more you invest, the more you get back, except in this scenario you can't lose.

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suzanne536:

Americans historically do not like to pay taxes

Who does like to pay taxes, historically or otherwise? Do Americans historically like getting sick or injured and having to die when they can't afford treatment? Of course not, same as everyone else. Besides, americans historically do not like to get shot in the face but nonetheless they made the brave move of selling semi-automatic assault rifles in supermarkets, and look how happy that made everyone? Except the ones who get shot in the face, obviously. Just try it out, you'll like it - in seven years time when your new republican president tries to repeal the bill I'll bet you'll be at the front of the riot screaming "You can have my healthcare when you pry it from my warm healthy alive hands!"

Edit : Wait, the answer is "MJLover likes to pay taxes" which ruins my whole post. I'll get me coat...

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suzanne536:

Sorry, but we are talking about my pocket book and  not yours

Getting landed with a medical bill that you have no hope in heck of paying in your lifetime would make a larger tax bill look like a birthday present I would imagine

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Large Hadron Collider - because fleshlites are for wusses

NUNBERRY:

Edit : Wait, the answer is "MJLover likes to pay taxes" which ruins my whole post. I'll get me coat...

I never said I liked paying taxes, just that I prefer paying taxes rather than having to sit at home with a medical book searching for symptoms when I can just call the doc, go to his office and get diagnosed AND fixed.

But if it ruins your post, I do enjoy it. I like ruining things.

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Right, nobody really enjoys paying taxes. It's not like a national passtime in Norway or something. But we think it's a thing when our country benefits from it. I may never get incredibly ill, but I'm happy knowing my money went towards healing someone else. On the other hand, I may get so ill that I could not possibly afford it, with or without taxes.
I don't see how you can't see it's a win/win situation. Well, unless you don't give a damn about anybody but yourself.

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The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one.

deliriousstudios:

Well, unless you don't give a damn about anybody but yourself.

National health care is such a foreign concept here, and I could be way off, but I don't think it's about that. Not caring, I mean. I think it's more about concerns that quality/continuity/timeliness of care is going to decline so much and so rapidly that it won't be worth the expense.

Personally, I would benefit-- my employer doesn't offer insurance. Professionally, it could potentially be a nightmare-- I'm a nurse, and we already have to jump through flaming hoops of razor wire to get patients the care they need from their private insurance companies. What's it going to be like when the state is involved?

As someone who has sat in both private hospitals and the ER room of an NHS hospital....  the waiting time if only different because of the amount of people there.   I still had to sit and wait for long amounts of time at private hospitals...    and they still managed to bodge my op.



The amount of time spent...chatting may be less...but in all honesty chatting isn't a doctors job, but something hes all to happy to do when he's getting  large amounts of money from you.

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Me and Mortalitis...and some other guy?


Anony: Strip and all your problems will go away

I'm sometimes worried that little examples influence people a great deal on this subject.  Hearing stories about waiting times, dirty hospitals, lazy doctors, underpaid staff, etc. puts people off (understandably) but is it different from the private alternative?

I don't think it is, you get what you pay for in both occasions and I think the reason an NHS sounds so expensive is because there just are a lot of people needing care.

Not sure if there is a connection with this but when I was last in the US I was appalled by the amount of people living in the streets and the general state of some people. Is it 45 million people without healthcare and proper access to a hospital, I think I saw them all in this city.  It was disgusting, BUT probably a different reason for it.  What I am saying is with an NHS you could send those people there and they would be given care and some general 'maintenance'.

I'd much rather pay tax for health, and education etc., then the development of a new fighter jet or even bailing out the financial sector.  I wish we had the choice...

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.
This is my sig, this is my gun
This is for you, this is for fun.

squidproquo:

deliriousstudios:

Well, unless you don't give a damn about anybody but yourself.

National health care is such a foreign concept here, and I could be way off, but I don't think it's about that. Not caring, I mean. I think it's more about concerns that quality/continuity/timeliness of care is going to decline so much and so rapidly that it won't be worth the expense. Personally, I would benefit-- my employer doesn't offer insurance. Professionally, it could potentially be a nightmare-- I'm a nurse, and we already have to jump through flaming hoops of razor wire to get patients the care they need from their private insurance companies. What's it going to be like when the state is involved?

I agree with you I work for th federal government, Medicare and Medicad is a prime example why the government should stay out of the health care business. If the President and Congress want a health care plan that would beneifit all people with different incomes, appoint a board of doctors in all specialities have them come with a plan for health care and present that to President and Congress and then come up with plan for funding. 

 Squidy I admire  the job you do, a job sometimes difficult and demanding.

 

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http://mr-thump-2.mybrute.com Try to beat me if you can!

kymned:

The biggest problem is that Americans, in general, are stupid. They believe the hype spread by the republicans, the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies. In fact, just yesterday, a new ad came out; this one attacking women with breast cancer. According to the conservatives, the health care system is an excuse to kill old people, mandate sex changes and abortions, a place for death panels and now it's also a plot to kill women with breast cancer. And the people here are stupid enough to eat it up. Even when informed people, who actually research this stuff tell them differently, they still don't believe it. I mean, any person with any sense knows that it's all a crock of ***.

To suzanne; they are talking about raising the taxes on people with the money to afford it. As it is, I am taxed at a higher rate than people who have a billion times my salary. What kind of *** is that? They should pay their fair share. If you make more, you pay more, that's the way it goes.

 Also to say it is unnecessary is just ignorant. My husband and I are two of those 45 million people. Are you saying that we don't deserve to be healthy because we can't afford it? My husband has a job, I'm a college student, we pay our taxes, give to charity when we can, yet we still don't deserve health care? I've been sick for months, but I can't find out what's wrong with me because they want to charge us a rate that is almost as much as my rent, just for basic insurance! I could be dying of stomach cancer for all I know, but unless I am actually about to die, I can't go see what's wrong. I have thousands of dollars in medical debt from the time I had to go to the ER and found out that had I waited any longer I would have died of pneumonia, which makes it even harder for us to get a rate But, you're right, it's an unnecessary plan.

Sorry for your pocketbook, but we're talking about my family's health, not yours.

My opinion is the government needs to stay out! I know I will label as not caring, but there is no reason why people should not try to get medical insurance. My first job before working for the government was minimum wage I still managed to get insurance. Yes times is tough and probably get better down the road. You just have to tighten your belt another notch and deal with it. 

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http://mr-thump-2.mybrute.com Try to beat me if you can!

if it were that easy, don't you think I would already have done it? No matter how much I tighten my belt, it is impossible for us to afford it. I have to have my pc and internet for school (I take online classes) I don't buy games anymore, we never go out and we usually suffice with 2 meals a day, if we're lucky. Even if I cut off my net (resulting in no school which equals beginning to pay back student loans, although with no degree to get  a better job) went down to one meal a day, sold my pc and my 360, I could afford maybe one month of insurance. Are you f***ing kidding me? Why should I have to choose between my electricity and my rent or healthcare. It'll do wonders for our health living on the streets.

As far as medicare and medicaid, if you told the people who were on it that you were gonna scrap it, they would riot. It works great for them and they all love it. If it's hard for you in government, too bad, that's why you get paid, to deal with the bullshit. My mothe ris a therapist at a mental hospital and deals with medicaid all day and loves dealing with them. If it's sometimes convaluded, it's because of the idiots working for medicare and medicaid, not the system itself.

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What is so special about the US government that it would be incapable of running such a program?
What is so special about the US insurance companies that makes them a choice for running your health care?

MrThump2:

there is no reason why people should not try to get medical insurance.

Apart from the fact that many cannot afford it, and apart from the fact that many get denied for having pre-existing conditions?
Yeah, no reason really.

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The only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one.

kymned:

if it were that easy, don't you think I would already have done it? No matter how much I tighten my belt, it is impossible for us to afford it. I have to have my pc and internet for school (I take online classes) I don't buy games anymore, we never go out and we usually suffice with 2 meals a day, if we're lucky. Even if I cut off my net (resulting in no school which equals beginning to pay back student loans, although with no degree to get  a better job) went down to one meal a day, sold my pc and my 360, I could afford maybe one month of insurance. Are you f***ing kidding me? Why should I have to choose between my electricity and my rent or healthcare. It'll do wonders for our health living on the streets.

As far as medicare and medicaid, if you told the people who were on it that you were gonna scrap it, they would riot. It works great for them and they all love it. If it's hard for you in government, too bad, that's why you get paid, to deal with the bullshit. My mothe ris a therapist at a mental hospital and deals with medicaid all day and loves dealing with them. If it's sometimes convaluded, it's because of the idiots working for medicare and medicaid, not the system itself.

If money is that tight, then get out and get a job.  Going to school is not an excuse to not work. Especially if it is online.  I went to college full time and still held a full time job.  Was it hard yes, but at least I was able to pay my bills.  I know when I was in school affordable health insurance was offered to students by the school.  When people say they can't afford health insurance is a crock.  I paid for private insurance that was not through my employer and it was affordable, plus the deductble was decent.  There is health care insurance, if people would look.  Oh, and I deal with Medicare and Medicaid all day.  The deductbles can be high, the rembursements are lousey and many docotors are refusing to take it.

Instead of going to the ER for medical care there are cinics availble for people, who are low income.  If I sound selfish so be it, but a chunk of my salary already goes to pay for people on Welfare.  Many of whom have been on Welfare for generations and have no intention of getting off. 

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Gradius1:

I smell another dream to crush...

suzanne536 brute

Part of the problem with Medicare & Medicade is they're trying to work with the insurance methodologies that the US health care system is built around.

If it was changed to universal health care then it should mean a complete change to how it works. The point of universal health care is it's free at the point of delivery, no turning people away, no heaps of forms to fill in, no worrying about being able to afford it. It's still paid for, if you take the UK model it's paid through National Insurance tax & employer contributions, which is similar to employer health insurance.

Health insurance becomes the exception rather than the norm. You still have the freedom of choice.

What gets me is the amount of people saying this is a step toward socialism or communism or it's like Hitler. I mean... get a grip...

kymned:

it's because of the idiots working for medicare and medicaid, not the system itself.

I have to disagree. Maybe it's just local, but the system is broken beyond repair. The doctor I work for isn't taking on any new Medicaid patients, not because it's Medicaid, but because typically Medicaid patients have a lot of problems and the way it works right now makes it impossible to help them. If we have a patient who needs a spinal fusion after an MVA and his Medicaid will not pay for it, nor will they pay for the Percocet he needs to function, and the only specialists he can see are three hours away when he can't afford a car let alone drive, how can a doctor reasonably be expected to provide primary care for that patient? "Take two Tylenol" doesn't exactly cut it, but the system refuses to even consider paying for anything additional. People (not necessarily anyone in this thread, but in general) express surprise that this is the way government healthcare currently works, but it's true. It's not something that happens every now and then, it happens countless times a day. It is a fact of Medicaid.

deliriousstudios:

What is so special about the US government that it would be incapable of running such a program?
What is so special about the US insurance companies that makes them a choice for running your health care?

The government don't have an excellent track record (see Social Security, Medicare, the aforementioned Medicaid), and while private insurance is also a disaster, it seems to be the lesser of two s at this point.

I'm not vehemently opposed to national healthcare. If it means I don't have to pay cash for my kid's immunizations and can take my allergy medication and not have to pay almost 300 dollars a month for the privilege of breathing through my nose, awesome. If it means that I can do my job and use the skills I went to school for as opposed to sitting on hold with an insurance company asking permission for a patient to have a CT scan, sign me up! But nothing that I've heard about the proposed system indicates that's the way it would work. There needs to be epic changes in healthcare as a whole before nationalizing it would be effective.

My issue with Obama's plan is this. It is not a national health care policy, not really, that is why the insurance companies are on board, because they get so many new potential clients.  One of the biggest problems with the American health care system is people like me who are  young pay our insurance premiums every month, which for me is about 1,200 a month. I very seldom use it. now then later on in life say I have some health problems, that premium goes through the roof, or I get dropped all together. which HAS happened to many people. then you fall through the cracks and have no health care.

The system we have is of little benefit to anyone really, except the insurance companies. my Mother broke her wrist, the doctor told her that if it was not pinned and surgically repaired, she would lose all use of it.  her assistants calmly explained she would need a deposit of 5 thousand in order to have the surgery, and the DAY SURGERY would cost 15 thousand dollars. (OR THEY WOULD NOT DO ANYTHING FOR HER) so all of us kids scraped into our savings and took out loans to pay for both the deposit and then the entire amount, for a procedure that took 30 minutes.

We need a single payer system just like Great Britain or Canada. whenever you hear a politician start telling a bunch of big scary lies like Palin did. it means one thing lot's of money is at stake. but the drug companies have to be reigned in, you can get the same drugs in Mexico for one sixteenth of the price, with get this,  the same label made by the same company that produces it in the United States. Sadly ( many Americans) do not view health care as a human right like Britain or Canada do, they view it as a priviledge.  Health care in the united states is a big money racket. and do we get what we pay for? hell no, where are we ranked in the world in health care? we are paying the price for a Mercedes Benz, and driving a Ford Pinto.

I would rather them take my 1.200 a month and help people who need health care in a national system, instead giving it to the insurance corporations for their fat cat CEO's. I am sorry but anyone who does not recognize the system we currently have is screwed,  is either making a ton of money on it, or just plain stupid. Only in America we are slaves to be free.

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suzanne536:

If I sound selfish so be it, but a chunk of my salary already goes to pay for people on Welfare.  Many of whom have been on Welfare for generations and have no intention of getting off. 

Suz, you might want to consider reading this. It's not "partisan", it's from the American Psychological Association.

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squidproquo:

You are a murdering machine, sir.

I taunt you if you need a sex-change potion. Ask me for one and I shall taunt you a second time. Oh, and I still have this!

suzanne536:

If money is that tight, then get out and get a job.  Going to school is not an excuse to not work. Especially if it is online.  I went to college full time and still held a full time job.  Was it hard yes, but at least I was able to pay my bills.  I know when I was in school affordable health insurance was offered to students by the school.  When people say they can't afford health insurance is a crock.  I paid for private insurance that was not through my employer and it was affordable, plus the deductble was decent.  There is health care insurance, if people would look.  Oh, and I deal with Medicare and Medicaid all day.  The deductbles can be high, the rembursements are lousey and many docotors are refusing to take it.

Instead of going to the ER for medical care there are cinics availble for people, who are low income.  If I sound selfish so be it, but a chunk of my salary already goes to pay for people on Welfare.  Many of whom have been on Welfare for generations and have no intention of getting off. 

Well, if you really went to college, as you claim, then you know that the more money you make, the less you get in student loans. So, yeah, I can go out and get another job, but I still won't be able to get health insurance because I'll end up having to use that money to replace what I lose in loans. As it is, they say my husband makes too much money for me to receive grants, so I am solely on loans. I take internet classes, because I have no way to get to the campus. My husband has to use the car to get to his job, which is what pays our bills.  The health care at my school is virtually non existent. The deductibles are too high, the co-pay is too low and I can't put my husband on it.  I have searched for a number of different plans, which is how I know that it's going to cost $500.00 a month for the type of plan we need.

I am also aware of clinics for low income people, but what you do not seem to understand is that we are not low income. We don't qualify for any kind of help. We are like many people out there, we make "too much" money for any services, but we don't make enough to be able to take care of it ourselves. I'm not asking for a handout. We pay our taxes, state and federal , in fact we pay more than most people, which also causes us to have less money. I honestly don't mind the state taxes, because I can see them at work, where I live. I also wouldn't mind the federal taxes if it went to help people and to make our country a better place. I'm also assuming you are not aware, but only 1% of people on welfare abuse the system, not to mention, the majority of the money that you seem to love so much, doesn't go to welfare. In fact, it is actually a very small percentage.

Shadow, I agree that we need a single payer system as well, but because if the greed and stupidity of most Americans, we will not get it any time soon. They are too easily duped by the insurance companies and the politicians who work for them. Now, it's also appearing as if we won't even be getting the public option. Again because of the ignorance and selfishness of the American people.

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