Off-Topic

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

deliriousstudios — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:02:33 GMT

The_Orcid:

Easily bearable. Right.

But what if you didn't have to bear any pain at all? How is FFA, whereby you must endure some degree of self-sacrifice better than no sacrifice, and contentedness?

I thought I already explained that. But let me make some random statistics anyway.

Let's say FFA gives you 85% satisfaction, whilst FFB gives 65% satisfaction. Even if the pain and guilt associated with FFA gave you a -10% satisfaction, it would still be higher. That's what I'm getting at. FFA is still better than FFB.

But then you still have issues with FFB. For example, you have the entire world hating you. If you can ignore this, ignore practically all painful associations, then I'd more than likely hesitate to classify you as human.
And you'd probably end up dead anyway (We go out of our way to punish/eliminate overly non-empathic people).

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

RAVEK — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:29:32 GMT

Survival of the species.

Only a byproduct.

But what did you think of the evolutionary sense of morality?

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

Lord_Terrible — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:03:04 GMT

The_Orcid:
Lord_Terrible:
You + Grateful Kid = Fuzzy Feeling A

You + Cafe Latte = Fuzzy Feeling B

FFA > FFB

If you want to get rid of your empathy to better satisfy your greed, why not do it in reverse, and get rid of your greed to better satisfy your empathy? Same end result, and you don't have to listen to people nagging you about being a ***.
Of course empathy causes you pain as often as it give you the fuzzies. One scenario is give and take, the other is take without guilt. Without guilt, you may never have the heroic satisfaction your empathy might provide, but you'll have a rather, might I say, pure kind of contentedness in your wicked debauchery.

So basically your retort is that FFA < FFB...

I don't think it's fair duelling grounds concerning FFA and FFB. You define FFA as a "give and take" scenario, ie. you feel about yourself but don't get a latte. FFB should then also be a give and take, in that you get a latte, but a normal (or non-liberated or whatever you may call it) person would also get a side order of guilt. If you can throw away the "give" part of FFB, and not care *** about whipping the child, surely you can ignore the "give" part of the FFA scenario at your whim? Or has the Dark Side such a hold on you that you cannot comprehend the concept of not feeding your greed?

Or rather, in the context of genetics, perhaps your specific makeup doesn't make much room for compassion. I could imagine that happen. I mentioned earlier that if I had to explain to you why whipping thirld world children for latte was a bad thing, then you probably weren't going to understand anyhow. In what I called "" people, the scenario of one person causing grief to another person for personal gain without remorse would spark some kind of resentment.

I don't think people are necessarily just born "", or rather let's call them moral, people. There may be genetically determined predispositions of course, at the end of the spectrum for example you have people suffering from psychopathy. Hell, around 25% or something of corporate middle managers are psychopaths. But I think that, generally, that gut feeling is something people learn, or develop, at some point in their existance.

We can probably all agree that all children are a**holes. They're f****ng horrible to eachother. Observe any schoolyard, or alternately that English TV-programme about some kids that are left in a big-brother like house, free to do whatever they want. I've been a *** too, in fact I remember punching some kid because he stole my mooncart. It wasn't "mine" per se, it was the kindergarten's, and I wasn't using it at the time of course, but it was mostly the principle of it. I abandoned rulership of the playground fairly quickly after that though. Most people abandon being complete dicks at some point, to varying degrees.

I have noticed a thing about humans. The shittier their existence is, the nicer they are. Whenever there's a hurricane or some other disaster, you always hear from the survivors how they're standing together, helping eachother and pulling through. I have a suspicion that what is needed before a person develops his or her empathy, is to have been through some serious s*** of his own.

Applied to this particular scenario, maybe you'd feel different about it Orcid if some imperialist pig had whipped you to power his latte machine at some point.

Maybe everyone should be forced to power a latte machine with their tears at some point in their upbringing.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

Fable2Fan — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 00:28:07 GMT

Undead---God:
Fable2Fan:
What in the hell are you talking about?! You just started ranting about anger and sex!
You bothered reading all that ?

I skimmed through it just a little bit. It got so boring and surreal after a while.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

The_Orcid — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:37:33 GMT

RAVEK:
And evolution cares about humanity. Not you

That's not true. Evolution selects on genes that provide for their own reproduction, not species or individuals.

Semantics, RAVE(EEE)K. You know my implication. Survival of the species.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

RAVEK — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:26:22 GMT

And evolution cares about humanity. Not you

That's not true. Evolution selects on genes that provide for their own reproduction, not species or individuals.

Reproduction of individuals involves reproduction of genes, so the most direct way a gene will be selected on is how it promotes reproduction. Survival of an individual will give more chances for reproduction, so that's also a plus.

Survival of other individuals with the same gene also helps that gene survive, so being kind to your kin is a idea. Survival of potential mates gives more opportunities for reproduction, so helping other members of the species that are close to you is a idea.

It's a idea to not help individuals that don't help you: reciprocation is useful. In an environment where you're punished for not helping, helping others that help you stimulates them to keep helping you: the other half of reciprocation is also a idea.

Etc. etc. morals make evolutionary sense.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

The_Orcid — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:03:14 GMT

deliriousstudios:
And if everyone did that, I don't think the human race would have lasted long. Thank god non empathic genes aren't as common as you'd like. (I don't see how they would have evolved in large quantities anyway).

Except I didn't say that. "Gloriously missing the point." Hallelujah. I wonder how many times I must use the word "individual" before you, ya know, figure that one out?

Is the guilt and the pain too much for you? Can't handle it? From my personal standpoint, FFA is so superior to FFB that any guilt and pain becomes utterly irrelevant and actually easily bearable. I can't see how FFB is a wholly superior situation.

Easily bearable. Right.

But what if you didn't have to bear any pain at all? How is FFA, whereby you must endure some degree of self-sacrifice better than no sacrifice, and contentedness?

Consider, again, the doctor I spoke of earlier who's big timin' in Uganda living in a converted storage pod. Mallaria. War. Death. Big f****ng ants.

I'm simply saying that living for yourself is the best way to live. Living for yourself is not for society.

WHOA IRONY ALERT RIGHT GUYS?

Yeah, the same irony that exists in phrases like, "follow your dreams" and "what we need is more people who specialize in the impossible" ... and etc. We tell everyone to shoot for the moon (even if you miss you'll land amongst the stars ) when in fact if everyone shot for the moon we'd be dead and I wouldn't have some fifty plus year old failure making my hambuger at McDonalds.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

deliriousstudios — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:29:56 GMT

And if everyone did that, I don't think the human race would have lasted long. Thank god non empathic genes aren't as common as you'd like. (I don't see how they would have evolved in large quantities anyway).

Is the guilt and the pain too much for you? Can't handle it? From my personal standpoint, FFA is so superior to FFB that any guilt and pain becomes utterly irrelevant and actually easily bearable. I can't see how FFB is a wholly superior situation.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

The_Orcid — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:20:15 GMT

Lord_Terrible:
You + Grateful Kid = Fuzzy Feeling A

You + Cafe Latte = Fuzzy Feeling
B

FFA > FFB

If you want to get rid of your empathy to better satisfy your greed, why not do it in reverse, and get rid of your greed to better satisfy your empathy? Same end result, and you don't have to listen to people nagging you about being a ***.

Of course empathy causes you pain as often as it give you the fuzzies. One scenario is give and take, the other is take without guilt. Without guilt, you may never have the heroic satisfaction your empathy might provide, but you'll have a rather, might I say, pure kind of contentedness in your wicked debauchery.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

Lord_Terrible — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:14:11 GMT

You + Grateful Kid = Fuzzy Feeling A

You + Cafe Latte = Fuzzy Feeling B

FFA > FFB

If you want to get rid of your empathy to better satisfy your greed, why not do it in reverse, and get rid of your greed to better satisfy your empathy? Same end result, and you don't have to listen to people nagging you about being a ***.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

The_Orcid — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:04:20 GMT

Daninsky:
Lord_Terrible:
So, essentially, you are accusing me of being controlled by my primal instinct of empathy. If I could turn that off, I could exploit my surroundings without care for their well-being. And yes, it would be a pretty swell world for me if I could be a total *** to everyone and not care the slightest.

I wouldn't be so sure about that given that naturally in that world everybody would behave like a total selfish something or other and we probably wouldn't have survived long enough as a race to even contemplate splitting atoms.

'Course, I'm positing a world wherein only you matter. Eternity, the history of the human race, the Universe, begins and ends with you. Each and everyone of us is the Alpha and the Omega to our perspective on reality. It's kinda like solipsism, minus everyone being fake. You're the only one who really matters because you're the only one with the perspective.

Now, 's far as Terrible goes, you mention it makes you happy to make other people happy, but in such a Universe that I'm describing (which, to my view, is the one in which we live) the value of helping someone (lets assume) who you'll never see again, who will never do anything positive for the world at large, is completely fixed to empathy. And evolution cares about humanity. Not you.

I'm not trying to make a point at this ... uh, point, but just trying to discuss the merits of helping someone versus helping yourself, per se.

Lemme put it like this:

Kid + Tortue = Cafe Latte

Empathy + You + Tortured Kid = You save the kid

Kid - Torture = No Cafe Latte

You + Grateful Kid = Fuzzy Feeling

You - Cafe Latte = Sucks, but you saved the kid

NOW

Kid + Tortue = Cafe Latte

No Empathy + You + Tortured Kid = Cafe Latte

You + Cafe Latte + Tortured Kid + No Empathy = Fuzzy Feeling

I'm using something completely arbitrary like cafe lattes, but lets assume it's rocket ships or the Great Barrier Reef or something. You have a lot of feelings couples with a little suckitude in one scenario and being utterly contented in the other.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

Daninsky — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:27:55 GMT

Lord_Terrible:
So, essentially, you are accusing me of being controlled by my primal instinct of empathy. If I could turn that off, I could exploit my surroundings without care for their well-being. And yes, it would be a pretty swell world for me if I could be a total *** to everyone and not care the slightest.

I wouldn't be so sure about that given that naturally in that world everybody would behave like a total selfish something or other and we probably wouldn't have survived long enough as a race to even contemplate splitting atoms.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

Lord_Terrible — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:57:21 GMT

Alright. This is probably going to sound pretty preachy, but my hand was forced

So, essentially, you are accusing me of being controlled by my primal instinct of empathy. If I could turn that off, I could exploit my surroundings without care for their well-being. And yes, it would be a pretty swell world for me if I could be a total *** to everyone and not care the slightest.

Being a *** only satisfies your other, less constructive, instincts. I could probably steal someone's purse and buy myself a lot of sweet stuff, or whip a korean kid to power my latte machine. That would cater to my greed, and if I turned off my empathy then yes, I would have a great time.

However, I have chosen to turn off my greed and focus on empathy. That means I don't care whether I can buy a lot of stuff. It doesn't make me happier. What does make me happy is a warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that the little korean kid was not whipped for my enjoyment.

Two tourists walking in front of me once dropped a 1000 kr bill (about £100 or $200) without noticing. There were noone else around, I could have picked it up and pocketed the money. Now, that was actually a temptation. But I chose to give it to them, and I've never regretted that.

Giving it back to them wasn't motivated by a hope of return favors, either. I didn't know them and chances were that I would never see them again. I don't believe in karma or going to heaven either. I did it because:
a) it made them happy. Dropping a 1000kr bill usually means you never see it again, yet here was a guy that just gave it back to you. I like to think I restored a bit of faith in humanity, or at least totally saved their day.
b) not doing it would totally ruin their day.

So why choose to indulge the vomit-inducingly wholesome instincts of empathy and compassion, instead of the much cooler ones like greed and dominance? Two reasons.

One. People who do this, rarely seem to me to be truly happy. People who win the lottery.. after a year, most of them say they're basically as happy as they were before. One part of my family is rich and have lots of fancy things, they're not really happier. They even still have financial worries, which to me is retarded because the worst that could happen to them is that they end up as wealthy as, say, me, and I really don't have a problem with it.

It is my experience that whether or not people are truly happy are only negatively connected to what level they indulge in their greed etc. The happier people are typically a lot more hippie-like. Simply, these instincts bring me a deeper and more stable level of happiness.

Two. Kant's moral imperative, which is basically a fancy way of saying that you should treat others like you want to be treated yourself. I'd rather live in a world where my fellow beings were trying to be people. I think it would suck to live in a world where most people are dicks, which is unfortunately closer to the truth. Therefore I try to be a person.

Working towards a such a world, the first step is starting with yourself. If everyone abode by this, mission accomplished really.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

deliriousstudios — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:03:59 GMT

I could live in a world without latte's. But I might kill a girl to cure AIDs. I don't really know what I'd do until actually faced with the situation, though. It depends on a lot of things. Like say, if that little girl was my sister. I probably wouldn't, since I hold family higher than all others. How do you 'defy' logic when it doesn't have a will? Saving my family members over strangers is the most logical thing to do in my mind. But like morality, there is no cosmic logical law regarding decisions.

But I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that morally, killing a little girl to cure AIDs is a 'bad' thing? Who decided that? I might think it's a thing.

We can all ignore our conscience and we can all learn not to be guilty, but I really don't think that it would benefit us, by and large. We're not faced with 'kill her to cure all' situations in our daily life. It's a bit of a pointless example.

Re: Self-Transforming Machine Elves

The_Orcid — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:27:53 GMT

Obviously.

So I pose to you the same question I posed to Terrible.

If one kid's screams powered the world's cafe latte machines, would you, given the opportunity, free the little dude? This is comparable to the "would you kill one little girl to cure AIDs" question.

Now, lets examine this veritable CONUNDRUM. Logically, these kids gotta draw the short straw. It would hurt a lot more people to stop the kiddie-torture or spare her life, respectively. Do we agree? Do we agree then that if given the opportunity to intervene in these situations logic dictates we should choose not to. If you would, why would you defy logic?

If you tell me it's because of, oh, maybe ... empathy ... does that mean you haven't mastered your baser instincts? Should we be able to turn something like empathy on and off at will, based on the benefit to us? Is the best possible world for you or I one in which we alone can?

Basically, wouldn't it be better for you if you weren't a guy at all? Assuming you mastered empathy (fear, anger, etc).