THEWHIZZ:

In a forum that is active, yet where it is obvious that a lot of correction is needed, it appeared to me that this excellent guide on how to properly do dialogue, written by a friend of mine on another forum, would be a great addition. I hope this helps you a lot in your writing!

The Punctuation of Dialogue

Dialogue is a tricky thing. Not only is it quite hard to make characters sound believable, the punctuation of dialogue is a headache. Should the quotation be treated like a full sentence, or is it in the same sentence as the tag? And what if the tag is in the middle? In this text I will try to answer these questions. But first: why should you use dialogue? Why wouldn’t narrative be sufficient for your story? Well, the saying goes that silence can tell more than a thousand words. This may be true, but all human beings talk. They talk an awful lot. And if you tell a story about humans, you will have to make them talk or else they will not seem like humans. Furthermore, dialogue makes the characters come alive, for the writer and even more so for the reader. Therefore, in this guide, I will explain how to punctuate dialogue. The information in this text has been acquired from all over the Internet and I would like to thank the nameless authors of these documents for introducing me to the wondrous world of English punctuation. Case I: the quotation before the tag A piece of dialogue usually consists of two parts: what is said (the quotation); and a tag that states who said it and in what way. For example in the next sentence: “I wonder if I will buy Rome: Total War,” mused Ludens. The quotation is “I wonder if I will buy Rome: Total War” and the tag is “mused Ludens”. There are three things you can note about the example: 1. The quotation is enclosed by quotation marks*. This rule applies to all quotations whether or not a tag is present, but only the exact words of the original sentence are enclosed by quotation marks. Indirect quotations (Ludens said that he wondered if he would buy Rome: Total War) have a different wording and are therefore not enclosed in quotation marks. However, when part of the indirect quotation contains the same words as the original sentence then that part can be enclosed within quotation marks. This is not obligatory, though. 2. Between the quotation and the tag is a comma. If the tag follows the quotation, the comma goes within[b/] the quotation marks. 3. The first word of the tag is0 [b]not capitalized. If the quotation had been a question or exclamation, the comma would have been replaced by a question or exclamation mark, but the first word of the tag would still not have been capitalized. “Shall I buy Rome: Total War?” asked Ludens. “I certainly shall!” he exclaimed. (* This raises the question: which quotation marks? Single or double? This often depends on where the writer is from. In the U.S.A. double quotation marks are favoured, but U.K. writers generally use single. Double quotation marks have the advantage of being distinguishable from apostrophes, that other annoying little punctuation mark, so I recommend using them over the single ones. Some languages use other punctuation marks to indicate quotations, for example hyphen or double angled brackets, but this is not correct here. If you write in English, you should use English punctuation.) Case II: the tag before quotation Ludens continued, “My old computer probably cannot handle it.” Here too there are three things you should note: 1. Again, a comma separates the tag and the quotation; but if the quotation follows the tag, the comma goes outside the quotation marks. 2. When a quotation is at the end of the sentence the period (or question mark or exclamation mark) goes inside the quotation marks. This rule applies to all quotations. 3. The first word of the quotation is capitalized. Case III: dialogue without a tag Off course, if the reader already knows who uttered the sentence, and in what way, then you can skip the tag. The dialogue is then simply treated as a single sentence with quotation marks on either side: “But perhaps I could order Rome: Total War and if my computer turns out to be too slow, I’ll simply wait with playing until I can afford the upgrade.” Case IV: the tag within a single sentence of dialogue “No,” said Ludens in a determined voice, “it will be best if I save for an upgrade first and then buy Rome: Total War.” This technique is not used often since a split in a sentence reads awkwardly, but you can use it if you want to emphasize the first word or part of a sentence. The rules are as follows: 1. On both sides of the tag are commas. The comma before the tag is within the quotation marks, the comma after it is outside, as you would expect from the above cases. 2. The first word of the tag is not capitalized. 3. The first word of the second piece of the quotation is not capitalized either. Case V: the tag between two sentences of dialogue “No, it will be best if I first save for an upgrade and then buy Rome: Total War,” Ludens said in a determined voice. “That way I can enjoy the graphical engine to its max.” – or – “No, it will be best if I first save for an upgrade and then buy Rome: Total War.” Ludens added, “That way I can enjoy the graphical engine to its max.” As you can see here, this is actually a combination of case III with case I or case II respectively: a sentence of dialogue with a tag followed or preceded by a quotation without one. Just apply the rules for case III and II or I and give each sentence its own ending mark. Case VI: multiple paragraphs[/n] “However, I might try to play it on my old PC, though its specs are the same as the minimum requirements. But I did that once before and it ended in disaster. That was with Black & White. grief, it still pains me to think of all the trouble I went through to secure a copy of that game and get it running on my computer, and then finding out that the minimum specifications had been rather generously calculated. And all that for a game that was buggy and far less engaging than I had hoped. Why did the magazines make such a hype of it? Why was there no one who said that he was disappointed about the game? I am still angry when I think of it. “That settles it: I am not again going to buy a game while I have only the minimum specifications. I shall suffer through all the exaggerated tales of fellow Org members and all their panegyrics on the battles, the gameplay, the cinematics and the great historical accuracy. I will save and save and save until I can afford a new computer and then I will join the RTW-fray. That’s what I shall do!” If a character talks for long stretches, you will need to spread the dialogue over several paragraphs in order to prevent long, boring stretches of text without layout. Start a new paragraph when a character changes tone or subject, because you would expect a breath pause at these places. The guidelines are the same as for the other cases, but there are two additional rules: 1. Each time you start a new paragraph, make sure there is an empty line between the two paragraphs. This applies to normal paragraphs and dialogue-paragraphs. If you want a more ‘bookish’ look you can opt for an indent instead of the white line, but this forum does not react well to double spaces at the beginning of a sentence. The forum does have tags for indentation:[indent] for a large indent, [2SP] for a double space, [3SP] for a triple space, but placing these is a lot of work and you need to place the closing tags ([/ INDENT], [/ 2SP] and [/ 3SP], without the spaces following the slash) at the end of the sentences as well. 2. If a character has a speech that lasts several paragraphs, only the last paragraph requires a closing quotation mark. The first paragraphs lack a closing quotation mark to signify that the character is still talking. It is recommended, but not obligatory, that you start a new paragraph whenever a new character starts speaking to avoid confusion about who is talking. [b]Case VII: quotations inside quotations Ludens continued, “And when I have my new computer, I can proudly say, ‘I can play Rome: Total War with graphical detail at maximum and still get a proper frame rate.’ ” Quotations within quotations are perfectly possible: just apply the same rules that apply to normal quotations. But do take care that for every opening quotation mark there is a closing quotation mark, and separate adjoining quotation marks with a space. It is also advisable that you use the other type of quotation marks to set off the internal quotation, as is done in the example, to prevent readers from getting lost. So, if you use double quotation marks, enclose the internal quotation with single quotation marks. If the quotation or the ‘quotation inside the quotation’ is a question or exclamation, you should end with a question or exclamation mark. Ludens continued, “When I have my new computer, shall I be able to say, ‘I can play Rome: Total War with graphical detail at maximum and still get a proper frame rate?’ ” Ludens continued, “And when I have my new computer, I can proudly say, ‘I can play Rome: Total War with graphical detail at maximum, or can’t I?’ ” A quotation inside a quotation inside a quotation is also possible, but I recommend against trying that. It is not grammatically wrong; it’s just hard to read. Conclusion This concludes my dialogue-primer. As you can see, quotations need to be treated as a sentence inside a sentence: the first word of the quotation is capitalized even if it is not the first word of the sentence, but the quotation does not have its own ending mark (apart from the closing quotation mark). If you remember this basic rule, everything in this guide should make sense. I hope you found this text helpful and I wish you luck on any future stories you may embark on. Ludens Addendum It was only after I wrote this guide that I became aware of the fact that there are two views on how to punctuate quotations. My guide takes the conventional view. However, there is another way to punctuate dialogue, called the logical view by its proponents. The logical view holds that a quotation should not contain any punctuation marks that were not present in the original sentence. Take for example this sentence: Rome: Total War has already won many Game-of-the-Month awards and it will win many Game-of-the-Year awards this winter. If I take the first part of this sentence and turn it into a quotation, the conventional views holds that is should be punctuated like this: “Rome: Total War,” Ludens wrote, “has already won many Game-of-the-Month awards.” However, when following the logical view, the sentence looks like this: “Rome: Total War”, Ludens wrote, “has already won many Game-of-the-Month awards”. Spot the two differences: 1. The comma closing the first part of the quotation is outside the quotation marks, since it did not appear in the original sentence. 2. The period is equally outside the quotation marks, because the quotation lacks the last part of the original sentence. Had I quoted the sentence in full however, the period would have been inside the quotation marks: “Rome: Total War”, Ludens wrote, “has already won many Game-of-the-Month awards and it will win many Game-of-the-Year awards this winter.” The same holds true for capitalisation. If the sentence does not begin with a capital letter, the quotation shouldn’t either. Also, the logical view does not hold with commas without a function between the quotation and the tag. In the above example, the commas around “Ludens wrote” are bracketing commas and as such should be included in the sentence, but in simple sentences with just a quotation and a tag, they should not used. “At least, I think it will win many Game-of-the-Year awards” Ludens added. He continued “It might just be that Half-Life 2 wins those, though.” There is no grammatical reason to add a comma between the quotation and the tag. So why did I write that you should do it in the first place? Because it is the convention. The logical view has got logic on its side, but the conventional view is the one most publishers, and almost everyone else, uses. With the exception of a few linguists, nobody uses the logical view and that’s why I wasn’t aware of it when I wrote this guide. Therefore, with this addendum I want to rectify this situation and allow writers to choose for themselves which side they take. But whichever side you choose, I wish you luck in your further career as writer. Ludens 16 Oktober 2004

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 Quoting: AMAUNATOR_THE_REVEALER

That is a brilliant guide to dialogue. God now I realise which kind of errors I make . Since I'm thinking of writing the new chapters today it is kind of good that I got this before I started, you got any other guides? I read some guide somewhere on the semicolon and normal comma use, but I don't know if it would do much better. Make this a grammar guide thread maybe? Thanks anyway, you deserve rep just for mentioning it .

 Quoting: Comma's and semicolon's

Commas A comma tells the reader to pause within a sentence. Don’t overuse commas. But don’t underuse them either. In general, if the sentence is confusing because the reader may run words together, you should add a comma. Both of the commas in my previous sentence were necessary for this reason. Many writers would add a comma in the previous sentence to make it necessary, for this reason; but that would be a mistake—for this reason is closely related to the rest of the sentence. The best way to deal with commas is to read each sentence to yourself, and to check and see whether additional commas would make the sentence easier to read, and to eliminate commas that make things drag needlessly. (Omitting the commas in my preceding sentence would make it hard to figure out what I was trying to say.) There are many more rules for commas, some of which I’ll discuss later; but the preceding commonsense rule works pretty well. Semicolons The semicolon can be viewed as a combination of a super-comma and a half-period. (That’s why it’s a period written above a comma.) That is, it can serve as a half-period by joining two sentences into one (as in the first two rules below); and it can serve as a super-comma by replacing a comma in situations where a comma itself won’t quite do the job (as in Rules 3 and 4). Here are specific rules: 1. Use a semicolon to join two clauses when these two clauses are not joined by a coordinating conjunction. (When they are joined by a coordinating conjunction, use a comma - except in the case of Rule 4 below.) The coordinating conjunctions are and, but, or, and for. The following are all correct—at least grammatically, although the order may be reversed socially: I walked down the street. There I saw something funny. I walked down the street, and there I saw something funny. I walked down the street; there I saw something funny. In the actual context of a story, the sentences would convey a slightly different meaning. For example, the third sentence suggests that the two activities were more intimately connected than the first (because the author put the two ideas in a single sentence). 2. Use a semicolon to join two clauses when these two clauses are joined by a conjunctive adverb. (When they are joined by and plus a conjunctive adverb, use a comma—except in the case of Rule 3 below.) Conjunctive adverbs include words like therefore, however, “thus,” and “furthermore.” {Note: If you have trouble recognizing conjunctive adverbs, you can ignore this rule and simply apply Rule 1; you will almost always be correct anyway.} Example: I slapped his wrist; thus pain was racking through his body. 3. Even when main clauses are joined by a coordinating conjunction, use a semicolon (instead of a comma) to join them if the clauses are very long and complex or if they contain commas. This rule is the one about which readers have been giving me grief. I’m simply going to state one more time that this is the rule as it is currently taught in high school and college courses and as it is applied by most major publishers throughout the United States. Some people would say that the semicolon followed by a coordinating conjunction is redundant. It would be better, they say, to just drop the conjunction and use the semicolon alone, since that serves the purpose more efficiently. If you’re really hung up on Occam’s Razor, fine; do it that way. These same writers would probably never begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction; that rule is no longer taught, and good writers often begin sentences with and. My point is that the semicolon alone is correct; but so is the semicolon followed by a coordinating conjunction when one or the other of the clauses contains internal punctuation or is long and complex (like this one). Example: Occam’s Razor is the principle, first formally stated by William of Occam, that the most efficient way is always the best way; but Occam never slapped any wrists. Example: While he was walking down the road he saw three men carrying away a piece of furniture, one that was carved out of rich oak; and then he wondered who's it was, because he had forgotten to see where it came from. Using a comma instead of a semicolon in these example would be confusing, because each half of the sentence already contains commas. In the second example, a good author might instead just insert a period and omit the and, especially if she is concerned about skipping a period. 4. Use a semicolon to separate items in a series if these items are long or contain commas. Example: All her friends were present; her dog, Ralph; the night watchman, Bill; and Ray, her ex-husband. Using commas instead of the semicolons would result in a confusing sentence, where we might think Sharon had an even more active night: All her friends were present, her dog, Ralph, the night watchman, Bill, and Ray, her ex-husband. Example: So far this week Bob has visited the Bobbsey twins, Rachel and Randy; helped out Millie, Alice, Patrice, and Carolyn in the coal shed; went dancing with Jane, Janet, Julio, and Billie Joe; and watched his sister winning her tennis competition. Try reading this sentence with commas in the place of the semicolons—and then remember that there are still four days left in the week! I myself still think writers do not need all four of these rules. For over twenty years I have survived quite well using a semicolon when a comma won’t quite do the job and when I don’t really want the full stop indicated by a period. Even if you or your teacher insists on knowing and using the four rules stated earlier, the logic stated in the preceding sentence will make it easier to remember and apply these more specific rules.

The guide I found it on sure is thorough, although the comma's are a bit lacking, I'll see which part she omitted and would add later. I keep forgetting the slashes, it's annoying ... Edit: she lied, there was no further explanation. I guess this should suffice.

 Quoting: AMAUNATOR_THE_REVEALER

Let me do nouns then, especially the noun 'apostrophe' for LT . Ah yes, true, I did tell you off for that one didn't I? Stupid of me, but then again, I was never really educated in that area of language ... weird thing is I have to learn everything on my own, nobody seems to want to give me any of their knowledge! Selfish bastards , I hate you . Anyway, some more grammar! I think I have something for spelling too, I hope it won't bother you TheWhizz ;-) :

 Quoting: Frequendly misused words

choose/chose Choose is the present tense. It rhymes with snooze. Chose is the past tense. It rhymes with hoes. its/it’s it’s means it is; its means belonging to it. This is a little bit illogical, because normally an apostrophe shows possession. But not with it. its’ doesn’t exist. lose/loose People lose things (including their virginity and their tempers). When things are not tight, they’re loose (which rhymes with goose). there, their, they’re Use their to mean 'of them'. Use there to mean over there or in that place and in the expression there is. Use they’re to mean they are. Combined example of all three: "They’re going to have their last meal when they get there." to/two/too Two is the number of persons most frequently present at a date. Too means 'also', as in I’d like to fill you in too. Too also means 'excessively', as in Ex. Sometimes I get paranoid too often at the grocery store. To is a preposition, which means it comes at the beginning of a prepositional phrase, as in Ex. We went to the store. or before a verb, as in Ex. I want to help you out. Combined: I want to talk to you. use/used People get used to doing things. Likewise, Johnny used to work with Janie. Use is a present tense, as in the song, 'Use me, abuse me…' lie/lay Lie means to recline. (It is an intransitive verb—it cannot take a direct object.) Its past tense is lay, and its perfect tense is lain. Of course, a serious source of confusion is that lay (in addition to being a word in its own right) is also the past tense of lie. Lie also means to state a falsehood. This is a completely different word that has a separate dictionary entry. Its past tense is lied and its perfect tense is has lied. (This meaning is easily understood and usually causes no confusion) Lay means to put something (or someone) down. (It is a transitive verb.) The past tense is laid. The perfect tense is has laid. The three most common problems with lie/lay are: 1. using lie when you mean lay (and vice versa), 2. using laid (instead of lay) as a past tense of lie, and 3. using laid (instead of lain) as the perfect tense of lie.

The ones that are underlined were done by me, because I find it very useful to have it underlined, they are quite annoying ...

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 Quoting: AMAUNATOR_THE_REVEALER

The punctuation is exactly the same (using the rules at the start of this thread). The only difference is that you use different marks. In the UK people use the quotation marks to quote (" ... ") and the apostrophes ( ' ) to incapsulate thoughts. Like this: He said, "Wouldn't it be great if we all could be friends?" 'Yeah right, you slime ball,' she thought. "Yeah! It would!" she exclaimed nonetheless. In the US they twist the uses though. The quotation marks to express thoughts and the apostrophes for normal speech. I'm not sure, but I think these are just ease-of-use rules. You can use quotation marks all the time if you wish, but you have to clarify whether it is thought or not with the tag (he said, she thought, he mused ...) EDIT: Indeed, I forgot, you can avoid using any of those by using other methods. Going first person singular will solve many problems. There's also italics to show that someone's talking or thinking. You can also use hyphens at the start of your said or thought sentence: eg. - Are you sure? - Yes, I'm sure, but I'm hoping I wasn't. Person X seemed distraught and saddened. In every case you have to clarify who's talking and if he's thinking or talking though.

 Quoting: AMAUNATOR_THE_REVEALER

 Quoting: Frequently misused words 2

I think I'll have to continue this guide. There are many people who still have problems regarding the correct spelling of words that mean the same, but are written differently, mean something different, but are written in the same way, and words that sound the same but mean something different and are written differently. no/now/know No: This one is real simple. Used to express refusal, denial, disbelief, emphasis, or disagreement. It is an adverb. Ex. No. I won't do what you asked me to. Now: This is also an adverb, but one of time. Describes the present (the here and now). Ex. Now I've got it! Know: This is a verb. The verb 'to know' means 'to perceive'. Ex. To know one's self is to know all else. we're/were/where We're: This is a contracted form of 'we are'. Ex. We're going on a trip to Belgium tomorrow. Were: This is the past simple of 'to be' in every person but the first person (which is 'was', except in conditionnal tenses). Ex. You were going too fast again, I bet. of/off Of: Of is a preposition with many meanings. Most often it is used to define possession of something or relation to something. Ex. Of all the days in a year, this day has to be worst! Off: This little bugger can be an adverb, an adjective and a preposition. It is most often confused with 'of' in its prepositional uses and, although grammatically not synchronous, its adverb form. Ex. Off (prep.) the track a shot went off (adv.) that could still be heard miles away in the off (adj.) side of the sports club. hole/whole/wool Hole: This is a simple noun, meaning 'a cavity' among many things, mainly pointing to this meaning in metaphorical ways. Ex. That bomb blew a hole in the ceiling and walls. Whole: This can be a noun, an adjectif or an adverb. The meaning is mostly deducted from this: 'Containing all components'. Ex. On the whole (noun), my whole (adv.) new idea was a tad too whole (adj.). Wool (I'm not taking any chances ): This is mainly a noun (can be an adjective, but people often choose 'woolen' as a synonymous adjective to distinguish between the noun and the adjectif), meaning 'a material or garment made of hair from animals' most formally. Ex. Wool was England's major commodity for a very long time and still is to a certain extent. new/knew New: This can be both an adjective and an adverb. It's meaning is 'something young, or pertaining to having been made earlier'. Ex. My new-made sweater was a new design I had fashioned myself. Knew: This is the simple past of 'to know'. Ex. We knew he had something up his sleeve.

Let's hope it helps. P.S: Sorry for the double post, but it's the only way to get this going somewhat again

 Quoting: Lord_Terrible

Ok, I will hammer together a quick and dirty guide to correct plurals. You often find people using apostrophs to indicate plural. This is, however, wrong. Examples of wrong usages of the apostroph you may find; "...although the comma's are a bit lacking," - Amaunator "This article contain's many line's of text." "They had many internal battles'." Here you can see apostrophs placed in plural words. However, in common English the apostroph is primarily use to indicate ownership or a specific trait of the subject. Here are some gramatically correct sentences; "The article contains many lines of text." "The article's relevance is high." "The articles are boring." "This is the people's government." You can also have apostrophs plural subjects possessing something, for example; "This is the pigs' trough." "The battles' common trait is that they were purple."

And there you have it. The same stuff we BnW2 writers used in our stories, minus of course Dictionary.com and other valuable sites. I do hope you find this compilation useful, and I also hope to read more of the good stories you guys have to offer. Keep writing! (I think I really need some sleep now)

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 Quoting: frostyatom

May I say that this is an excellent idea and one which I hope will provide help to everyone. I have seen some stories which the content and the imagination has been great but the punctuation etc has been very poor... luck!

Aye, I was thinking the same thing, that's the main reason I did this. What can I say, I like reading stuff

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Bumping this becuase we are in serious need of it. Sam why didn't you STICKY?

At last! My constant moaning has worked! Sticky!!!

Thanks moddies.

Hermit

Mj posted back in 2007, but I've been asking for a sticky since then, only got attention last night it seems. Morts a helpful chap aint he.

So get reading it! Its a nice likkle guide.

Hermit