Lengthy article on the current state of RPG's, with some wise words from our very own Molyneux:

http://www.gameplayer.com.au/Home/FEATURES/FEATURE/tabid/1488/Default.aspx?CID=5d8ec659-0cdc-4399-b2fb-8555e5988a36&v7Pager=1

 

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This is my sig, this is my gun
This is for you, this is for fun.

RPGs are a strange beast at the mo. Both Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon (of which I have only played the XBL demo) don't feel 'new'. In fact Im struggling with LO because it feels like a Playstation 1 game (guess which one in particular? ) I used to love J-RPGs when I was younger, but recently the western ones which have included an element of freedom have been much more satisfactory.

On the other hand, LO almost made me cry (again) last night. the story/writing is phenomenal. Not only are the 'dreams' fantastically written, but when you start seeing similar events in-game its really quite heart-breaking.

I hope Fable 2 is gonna combine these two aspects!

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I've got to say that J-RPGs don't excite me the way they used to either. Ever since I played Oblivion (which I am admitedly a huge fan of - and no, I'm not interestd in having an 'oblivion sucks' argument with anyone), RPGs that just lead you by the nose one narrative step at a time feel horrendously restrictive. I put games such as Neverwinter Nights and the KOtOR under that umbrella as well now, though -  I've played them since and they just feel so stilted and primitive to me. I find the limitations too irritating.

That said, I still appreciate originality in rpgs. Persona 3 for the PS2 interests me very much and I'll be getting that when it comes out over here, and I think The Witcher does a lot of things right in that your decisions genuinely do have an impact on things - that does a lot to draw you in and I'm enjoying it a lot. Makes the world feel alive and does a very impression of being more dynamic than it probably really is.

 

Curiously, although I'm looking for more freedom over 'on-rails narrative' in RPGs these days, in other genres I'm far more interested in a strong story to drive the action. Uncharted scored some serious kudos points with me for it's outstanding story presentation and charactarisation, and I really (perhaps surprisingly) quite enjoyed 'Lost : Via Domus' even though it's arguably far more story than game...

 

EDIT - I think part of it might be that these days I perhaps feel RPGs should be more about playing the role you want to play, rather than having a role forced upon you. Go out there, do your own thing at your own pace and all that. If nothing else, The Elder Scrolls have shown that RPGs can really be about Role-Playing, rather than the Role-Following most computer 'rpg's have offered us.

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Oblivion sucks.



Anyway for me rpgs arent really about what role i want to play i always found games like oblivion and open rpgs like that boring while final fantasy and that kind of games where you are usually just following one path (well i know 12 nactually was a pretty open world but it still didnt have the complete open world feel to it like oblivion) are more for me.

Anyway who wants wise words for someone who thinks that fable 2 will be the first ever rpg to have full co-op ?

Diablo 2, dungeon siege, baldurs gate.

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You know I was going to reply to this straight after I spotted it, but then realised I couldn't actually say what it was that I felt made a RPG, so I went away and had a damn think about it and decided on this;

No matter what the game must be epic. Could be for a numebr of reasons, an epic story like in Final Fantasy VII that builds slowly and has lots of twists, or an epic setting like in Oblivion or Morrowind. Heck even Mass Effect with its constricting game play area won me over with the combination of epic story and epic settings ... So essentially? I just like to be moved to feel something by a game, be it a sense of overwhelming grandure or an emotion ...

As you can tell I have high hopes for Fable 2 as a result of this

I must admit though that I still have yet to even put the Blue Dragon game into my 360 and I brought it a 2 months ago ... I think it is because when you start Final Fantasy games it takes you a hour to get into it, then you can just pick it up and play for a bit, but until then you just have to sort of plug away for a while ...

To be fair though rpg's in computer games can't really live up to what people get from playing them either in real life or text based ones on forums, because computer games are inherently limited in what they have to offer, and as I am sure people will agree with, you can't always get what you are imagining into a computer game, due to technical limitations etc etc.

Now I've actually lost the point of what I was saying, but I think it is something like this - computer games don't really have true RPGs as such, we have stories that we play out, every person the world over who plays FFVII will go through the same key plot features, and end up at the same end point, yes on the way there there is a lot to do and such, but the end result is that everyone has the same story to play out... It's the same with Oblivion and other games, although they do give you the choice to play the main quests, but then the game kind of dries up if you don't do the main quests because eventually you will complete everything else and be lead back to doing the main quests ...

I guess what I would hope for is something like Oblivion crossed with Little Big Planet and Spore ... something where yes there are quests to do, but they are tutorial quests that give you an idea of how to play the game, when you come out the other side of them you get the opportunity to design your own quests, to just generally take the game and make it yours... Now I know quest design is a complicated part of any game, but maybe some sort of intelligent system that creates quests and sub-plots based on the way you interact with people in the game ... and now I am just rambling ...

Anyways, I have high hopes for the future of RPG's especially with things like Fable 2 which appear to be heading in the right direction ...

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Mortalitis_Infinitas:

You have gained enough renown to purchase the "Creative Director of European studios at Microsoft Games Studios" title.

I think the key to a RPG is how well realised the game world is.

I like to think of the RPG holy grail as the holodeck off Star Trek. You're meant to be assuming yourself into another world: How fleshed out that world and it's characters are, and how well it reacts to you, all goes towards selling that experience. The more an RPG can immerse you in it's world and make you forget you're sitting at a desk, the better.

In some ways I think this is where Lionhead's games can fall short of the vision. From a conceptual standpoint, some of the ideas that Peter proposes in previews are incredibly exciting, but what lets them down is how shallow the realisation of those ideas is. Don't get me wrong, when all is said and done Lionhead makes great games, but I think a lot of their ideas get diluted in the execution.

Where the problem lies is in Lionhead's reliance on simulation, which can make their worlds seem somewhat cookie-cutter (like say, the side quests in Mass Effect). Simulation is the future, no-doubt, but the technology isn't there yet and until it is, games really have to be hand-crafted if they're going to feel rich and alive.

In Fable it was great that the simulation allowed you to chat-up any girl in the game, but trying to craft a compelling relationship between two characters with simulation and a few generic lines of response is always going to be an uphill battle. Compare that to the relationship you have with say Alyx Vance in Half-Life or the reltionship between Nathan Drake and Elena Fisher in Uncharted and you should see what I mean. Fable and it's sequel may allow you to form relationships with anyone (be that friendship, romance or otherwise), but if every character is a vapid, nameless peon then it doesn't matter who I choose because none of them are going to be truly engaging.

I pretty much agree with matneee that RPGs, especially of the Japanese kind, don't really let you roleplay a lot. But that's not why I play RPGs anyway, so I can't say I mind

I like open gameplay, but not as empty and pointless-feeling as Oblivion (Vice City like quests are more my style).

My favorite RPGs are still of the Japanese variant, because of the focus on atmosphere, style and story. Also puzzles in dungeons! I dislike the endless monster dens you find in Oblivion, Fable and Final Fantasy (bit of the odd one out ) My favorites of the JRPG kind are Lufia II (SNES), Golden Sun (GBA), and a few of the Zelda series (Link to the Past, SNES and The Wind Waker, Gamecube)

For the most part, I hate JRPGs for one reason, the combat, most of the(the final fantasies, etc) have that irritaing turn based combat, and most others(NWN, Baulder's Gate, etc) have the combat that pulls you out the experience.  They have stories(KOTOR, etc) but as was said by PM in an interview, RPGs are 50% combat and 50% everything else, but most of them have the same boring system. Some do it abit better, but no change.  Morrowind and oblivion tried to make combat feel like combat, but failed. Fable was the first imo that made combat fun and unrepetative and also had a story. Forgotten Realms had Dark Alliance(s) with some decent combat but the gameplay and story were pretty boring. 

RPGs which if most of them truly were Role Playing would be the most dominant genre in the video game market, but since there is just a flood of these clones with only a few that stand out, it brings the whole genre down.

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Whether you think you can or can't, you're right either way.

Mat, when is persona 3 coming out over here? got like a jillion games to get through but wanna play that too...and I wanna sample the bewidlering delights of disgaea

I think one of the failings of many rpgs is that they try to be too epic. As a hero you are nearly always trying to save the world etc etc, and they situations just seem unbelievable and incredible, so you get disillusioned with the character.

mixmasterfestus:

Mat, when is persona 3 coming out over here? got like a jillion games to get through but wanna play that too...and I wanna sample the bewidlering delights of disgaea

Persona3's been out for a few weeks now. However, as it has a spark of originality to go with it's great reviews, don't expect to find it in any highstreet stores (seriously , don't. I looked but ended up having to get it mail-order...). Then again, any game that features schoolkids shooting themselves through the head as such an essential part of it's gameplay is bound to make highstreet stockists a little, er, nervous

A word of warning, though - it's start might seem a little slower than you'd expect. The story only really gets going a few hours into the game. Mad as a box of frogs though, and I'm liking it a lot

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I've read nothing but things about it and I strive to find the loopier games...seem more pure to me.

Ever play Valkyrie Profile?

Nah. Much like you it's on my list of games to play, but I'm never got round to it. Curiously, after you reminding me about it I looked it up on Ebay with an eye to getting a PSP copy. I almost bought it but I was slightly put off by the postage cost in the end...

(I swear to any deity you care to mention that image isn't doctored. Well, apart from my postcode, that is...)

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I wonder if people actually fall for that kind of thing ... I can't really see it working though ...

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Mortalitis_Infinitas:

You have gained enough renown to purchase the "Creative Director of European studios at Microsoft Games Studios" title.

maggot:

Oblivion sucks.

point, well made........Not, ha ha ha. Thats a bold statement, one someone may make just to ge attention. Have you got a reason? Or are you a Holocaust denier of the games world.

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"Sell a man a fish, he eats for a day, teach a man how to fish, you ruin a wonderful business opportunity." - Marx

mcpaddyb:

Or are you a Holocaust denier of the games world.

What are you, a troll?

mcpaddyb:

maggot:

Oblivion sucks.

point, well made........Not, ha ha ha. Thats a bold statement, one someone may make just to ge attention. Have you got a reason? Or are you a Holocaust denier of the games world.

I actually think oblivion is a pretty average game, with average fighting, average story and well graphics but it was a joke to matnees post above that where he said

"Ever since I played Oblivion (which I am admitedly a huge fan of - and no, I'm not interestd in having an 'oblivion sucks' argument with anyone)"

and i made a smiley just below that to show i was just trying to annoy him.

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maggot:

mcpaddyb:

maggot:

Oblivion sucks.

point, well made........Not, ha ha ha. Thats a bold statement, one someone may make just to ge attention. Have you got a reason? Or are you a Holocaust denier of the games world.

I actually think oblivion is a pretty average game, with average fighting, average story and well graphics but it was a joke to matnees post above that where he said

"Ever since I played Oblivion (which I am admitedly a huge fan of - and no, I'm not interestd in having an 'oblivion sucks' argument with anyone)"

and i made a smiley just below that to show i was just trying to annoy him.

I am entirely outraged by this

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matneee:

Curiously, after you reminding me about it I looked it up on Ebay with an eye to getting a PSP copy. I almost bought it but I was slightly put off by the postage cost in the end...

Hot damn, I hope that postage is at least international.

 

You know, I used to think that an RPG should be you making choices on behalf of the character you play (and it's up to you if you aproach this as what would I do in that situation, or what would I hope I do, or what would my fictional character do) in a game and then  having to live with the impact of these choices. But the more I read the Fable2 threads, the more I get shown the error of my ways. It seems that the consent there is that a RPG should say you can do this it but will make you a bad person (written in bold letters, so that no one could become bad by mistake, or vice versa). Makes you wonders why they don't go and make SSI RPG's again...

But that Nazi-Werewolves RPG looks fun, seems they taken up the fighting/magic system from Parasite Eve again.

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"I don't care if the audience watches my movies, long as my producer doesn't lose money."
-Jean-Luc Goddard

I guess you are having a jab at the people that are saying that you need things to be in bold letters that that will happen if you do it?

I like RPG's that don't tell me if what I am doing is wrong or right, Mass Effect had it of sorts, you would do something and only afterwards you would find out if it was a or bad thing because you don't know all the facts before you do anything ever:

The road to hell is paved with intentions, and frozen door to door salesmen. Some of the younger demons like to go ice skating around them. - Omens (Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman,)

Essentially, I like to do things as I would normally do them and see if my complete naivity about a situation leads to the wrong thing happening ... it's like real life, only people don't actually get hurt!

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Mortalitis_Infinitas:

You have gained enough renown to purchase the "Creative Director of European studios at Microsoft Games Studios" title.

satansmunchkin:

I guess you are having a jab at the people that are saying that you need things to be in bold letters that that will happen if you do it?

Exactly, the most funny thing has to be seeing people demand more blood and realism in Fable 2 but no scars. I mean come on what shall it be, make up your minds.  

satansmunchkin:

I like RPG's that don't tell me if what I am doing is wrong or right, Mass Effect had it of sorts, you would do something and only afterwards you would find out if it was a or bad thing because you don't know all the facts before you do anything ever.

The Witcher(?) sounds great in that department. If only the specs for that weren't so god awful high.

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"I don't care if the audience watches my movies, long as my producer doesn't lose money."
-Jean-Luc Goddard

When I click the link I get this:

Server Error in '/' Application.

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The resource cannot be found.

Description: HTTP 404. The resource you are looking for (or one of its dependencies) could have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.  Please review the following URL and make sure that it is spelled correctly.

Requested URL: /FEATURES/FEATURE/tabid/1488/Default.aspx

That said, I think that while to a large degree games can be designed to please people in various ways, there are also intangible things that make or break them. I said in another thread that Skies of Arcadia, a highly typical J-RPG was my favorite game of all time (so far.) Why is that? I honestly don't know. I berated Fable for not being something more than what it was, but love a game like SOA? Huh? Lol. It perplexes even me. I think it was the sense of wonder, exploration, and of being taken out of the world on the surface and up into the heavens above, that really hooked me. I can't be sure now, though. All I know is I still play it from time to time. It always ends the same. Quests never change. There are no choices. Nothing I do really matters or changes anything. Yet, unlike Fable, I dearly love ths game.

Someone please explain that to me with something other than, "Fear not. You're just insane is all" Lol.

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My apologies for any typos as I currently cannot see the screen well. This will be temporary.